cutter grinder wheels

I need some new wheels for my Deckel SOE and am wondering if I should go with a CBN wheel rather than the conventional grinding wheel (Aluminum Oxide) this is obviously for grinding HSS, I have diamond for carbide but I could use CNB on carbide as well right? The conventional wheels seem to wear very quickly and make a mess with all the grit, CBN wouldn't have these issues but there must be some trade-offs (maybe the CBN creates more heat etc and name brand ones are doubtless a bit expensive). I am not sure I can find a CBN wheel with the correct arbor size so I might need to make an adapter but that isn't a big deal.

thanks

Luke

whidbey said:

I need some new wheels for my Deckel SOE and am wondering if I should go with a CBN wheel rather than the conventional grinding wheel (Aluminum Oxide) this is obviously for grinding HSS ...

Click to expand...

Used to use Borazon for sharpening shaper cutters (HSS) ... did a great job. It cuts cooler than aluminum oxide, doesn't need dressing all the time, you have to be careful around it because the wheels will cut you rather than burn (still have a scar or two), we used it for several other jobs, all pretty much the same results.

Except even decades ago, the wheels were about $300 apiece.

Another thing you might try is the Cubitron II stuff. Just dealt with a gear grinder, had tests, better accuracy, higher speeds, saved many hours and did a better job than alox. It wasn't just advertising schmutz after all. That might be an in-between answer for you.

CBN are great for HSS but may run hot for taking heavy cuts or when run dry. The dust is still bad so I use a dust mask now for all grinding.

Surface grinding with a good box catcher and sucker has very little dust so what you will.

QT: [I could use CNB on carbide as well right?] diamond is harder so not a good idea.

Needing a sharp corner a good idea to take stock from inside of cutter when you can..Yes the wheel is less strong so lighter cuts... often the little extra time is worth the wheel savings. A cracker jack mini will dress most wheels.. even diamond to some extent...with care and slower spin.perhaps 200 RPM or so..

thanks guys, this grinder is for small cutters and light work (generally 6mm but could be up to 18mm) and I have never heard of anyone running coolant on one and can't see a good way to do it. I suppose mist might be an option but as the machine isn't designed for it might lead to problems in the dust collection system. The wheels I am using now came with the machine and have badly rounded outer edges which makes certain shapes impossible without removing too much of the remaining wheel to dress them. Conventional wheels are what the machine was designed for and have been used for many decades and are probably just fine, there is no need to over complicate things unless CBN really is much better. I am using this grinder for making small form cutters for the lathe and single lip milling cutters for prototype work. I made a little 6mm 60 degree dovetail cutter yesterday for example, something I could probably order but particularly in Norway it is nice to just be able to make a cutter that works and get on with the project.

Luke

You might get a much better deal with 1 ¼ cup wheelhole because much greater variety.
I like 120 and 320 grit.
You might pick up a Norbide stick for dressing AO wheels and make a template for repeat forms.
Try in-feed at inner of part and then grinding on the out-travel to maintain sharper corner..Yes it takes a little care so out travel does not stress wheel.
Also check out the crackerjack mini dresser.

I like to dress in the form as a circle grind.. like OD grinding..
Another good trick is to grind the form at 90* no clearance then top down to clearance angle so form does not change from compounding the angle..Yes you watch the form come up to the edge.

Then set the finger to up or down the clearance angle.. then come in to just sharp the cutting edge for each tooth..
Down load the free Cincinnati tool and cutter grinder hand book as it is good for all cutter grinders. Look to the back or book for clearance angle roll and tilt.

for the cutter OD you can roll only for needed clearance but as going closer to the end (axial) you have to include tilt. check end clearance with looking with a loop.

Okay I'ma gonna stick my nose in once again, see if you can find Cubitron or Norbitron or whatever they are calling it for abrasives. It honestly made a huge difference on some beeeg gears we were involved with. Since then people have told me I'm outdated, you can even get it on belts for belt sanders and so on. Everybody I've talked to who had used it has raved about the difference.

(And sorry about the misdirection, yeah, I never ran cbn dry.)

QT:Sea (And sorry about the misdirection, yeah, I never ran cbn dry.)
The same on that .. perhaps for a very ligt skim cut but they don't like dry..IMHO.

But we had a drill grinder that I think had a CBN wheel for the split.. cant remember how we dressed it back sharp. Perhaps e dressed it on the Cinci.

I made a special arbor for dressing CNC wheels on the Cinci #2..perhaps I dressed it there.. yes on the CNC we used CBN wheels wet only. Did not have that head motorized so used a big lathe dog for turn the work head.

You can even take a current used –up wheel and turn the od to fit a 1/1/4 ID wheel.
Good trick is to make a hand hold tool radius (.030”) tool bit and mark the OD hub of a cup wheel when it is running.(I fill the line with a paint marker just to be fancy)
Perhaps one circle line for you rougher, two for you medium and 3 for your fine wheel..
That way at a glance you know whet wheel is on the machine.

Keep wheels on a peg board with a clear drop cover curtain to keep air oils and dust off.

You might consider to make an arbor to hold perhaps a 3" 4 jaw chuck so you might OD a cutting tool to make counter bores out of drills and the like. (or a 3 jaw and adjust true hub).

We don't get many posts from Norway.. so post more often.. and send a photo.
Buck

One of the problems here in the US, probably not in Norway, is the selection of wheels with the Deckel 20mm mounting hole. I am making a couple of adapters so I can use the the more common 1-1/4" grinding wheels on the Deckel mounts.

I am American, but live over here so it isn't quite so exotic. Here are some photos of my workshop Workshop I need to expand my abrasive machines but that will require a shop relocation as I am out of space. I would like to be able to make some small collets so a cylindrical grinder would be good. in theory I can hard turn on the big Schaublin but probably not after slotting. CBN inserts are so freaking fragile and expensive it would be cheaper to buy a grinder The little deckel SOE is useful for sure, the instructions are a bit confusing but after a few minutes it isn't so hard to go about making up simple cutters. It also works well to set the angle and radius on carbide scrapers with a diamond wheel.

As to supplies Norway itself isn't great and not being in the EU makes importing a bit of an expensive pain but the proximity to Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland means you can get anything and pallet freight isn't bad at all although it is probably cheaper for you to order stuff from Germany to the states for small stuff. Norway costs three times as much to ship to from Luxembourg as it does to ship to Sweden for example. I love the nice old machines (Schaublin etc) and they plentiful if not exactly inexpensive. There seems to be much more on the market in the high quality small to medium size than I saw back in the States. (Seattle was terrible for finding good used machines) and given I work only in metric it generally being the rule. Although I ended with a Schaublin 135 with an inch pitch cross slide from the British market which annoys me although with a DRO it doesn't matter so much.

Buck, I am a bit confused about what you are suggesting to do with the old wheels.

thanks

Luke

QT: [I am a bit confused about what you are suggesting to do with the old wheels.]

The old wheel fits your spindle diameter so you need only turn the OD (and perhaps thin it a little) to make a wheel hub spacer to fit a 1 1/4" ID wheel.

Here in the states 1 1/4 ID wheels are perhaps more common..

did you just suggest to press a little old wheel into the bore of a new one to mount it?

No .. I am saying if you have an aluminum or plastic wheel that fits your spindle that is a good material stock to make a wheel hub spacer to turn down to the needed wheel size..Perhaps a 5/8 arbor and finding a 1 1/4 ID wheel will fit the machine for size and RPM then an arbor spacer may be in need. yes you need a way to turn the OD... in a pinch one could scribe it.cut with a hack saw.. hand trim on a bench grinder. put on the machine and finish with a hand held tool bit like a wood lathe action.

Yes a 20mm (.787) to 1 1/4 wheel mount spacer may be an of the shelf item for a low price. Paying $195 for the 150 and 220 wheel seems a high price. Seems a machine maker will tack on $20 to a wheel that can be bought from the wheel maker.

.002/.003 or so to OD run-out is OK to fine for a wheel like a cup wheel that grinds on the face. Once it grinds a little it trues itself. Face run-out on an edge wheel perhaps 1/16 or 1/8 is also ok.. *A flat face wheel like on the deckle should should run very close perhaps as close as you can get it .001/.002 At start.

The other suggestion was to mark the OD side of a diamond cup wheel to identify the grit ..perhaps two lines to indicate a 220 wheel , and three lines to indicate a 320 wheel.. that way at a glance you know what wheel is on the machine.

QT:: [something I could probably order]

Luke,
I think it great you making your own cutters...
I was going to recommend a Norbide stick.. but the are geitting expensive now.
Boron Carbide Rectangular Dressing Stick 7997878 - MSC

Guess get a few pieces of carbide for hand dressing AO wheels. S

Buck