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Grinding Shops

Mr.Green

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Location
NE Indiana
If this is in the wrong section, I apologize and would appreciate it being moved to the correct location.

I have currently moved into the world of rebuilding woodworking machinery for customers. My small local welding and machine shop can handle 90% of the parts I need made/replaced.

Recently I have come across the need for large scale grinding. Largest piece so far was 36x36". I had got a reference for a grinding shop in Cincinnati from a buddy, about 4 hours from my shop in NE Indiana.

I had a main table from a bandsaw, side table, two tables from a jointer and a bed off a planer surface ground. They were suppose to grind the jointer fence and a pressure bar for the planer as well.

I picked two skids of parts up, they were oiled, papered and shrink wrapped. I unloaded them in my shop and didn't touch them for a few weeks until I was ready to put them back on the machines.

They did not do the fence (other than screw up a corner of it)

They also did not touch the ledge on the jointer table. When asked, they said nothing about the fence and their excuse on the ledge was that it wasn't surfaced like the rest of the table (it was originally planed just like the table, only the table had wood pushed over it for 70 years)

My questions are these:

Anyone know any place close the NE Indiana that is a competent grinding shop with a fairly large capacity?

Second:

I found one place close, but their price was so high I knew that they didn't want to mess with it, I get that.

Why does it seem this kind of work is all but gone, or that there is no one left that actually knows how to do it?

Makes me want to find a planer and large grinder.



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Pictures of table and fence.
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FWIW, I would not have re-ground or re-planed the rabbet ledge on the jointer table either, unless specifically instructed.
It's merely a cosmetic issue. Or is that the crux of your refacing efforts - make it pretty?

Even if that is the focus, using a de-rusting agent like Phospho or a spooge tank (electrolysis) to make it a uniform patina & then letting it alone, before setting it up to plane or grind the working surface, would be a whole lot more conservative. If the grind or planer shop has to make the square edge & maintain the parallel alignments, that is a bigger set up and sequence of operations, plus a tool and maybe wheel change, Could double the cost for non-slap-dash work.

Fences - Hard to tell what they were thinking/attempted???
I do think with fences the first thing to do is press them straight. Though i would not expect an outside shop to take that risk.
Fences often don't have a surplus of metal, pressing the warped or twisted ones straight before surfacing (planing or grinding) will conserve more of the original stiffness, and IMO reduce the extent of movement during surfacing or in the future.

YMMV

smt
 
FWIW, I would not have re-ground or re-planed the rabbet ledge on the jointer table either, unless specifically instructed.
It's merely a cosmetic issue. Or is that the crux of your refacing efforts - make it pretty?

Even if that is the focus, using a de-rusting agent like Phospho or a spooge tank (electrolysis) to make it a uniform patina & then letting it alone, before setting it up to plane or grind the working surface, would be a whole lot more conservative. If the grind or planer shop has to make the square edge & maintain the parallel alignments, that is a bigger set up and sequence of operations, plus a tool and maybe wheel change, Could double the cost for non-slap-dash work.

Fences - Hard to tell what they were thinking/attempted???
I do think with fences the first thing to do is press them straight. Though i would not expect an outside shop to take that risk.
Fences often don't have a surplus of metal, pressing the warped or twisted ones straight before surfacing (planing or grinding) will conserve more of the original stiffness, and IMO reduce the extent of movement during surfacing or in the future.

YMMV

smt
My customer wanted tables ground, for both cosmetic and flatness. Putting Hermance heads in the jointer and 28" German planer. They ground the planer table, which had lips running the length of it down both sides without an issue.

It wasn't a case of they couldn't do the ledge, because they did the planer table just fine. They were shown what I wanted done, I gave them a list so they knew what to do.

If you were paying someone 10k+ to deliver you a Yates American jointer that was basically brand new with a modern head, would you want those pretty tables and that ugly looking ledge left?

It's just a simple fact that they did not do what they were asked to do and never mentioned that they didn't.

Unfortunately, grinding shops with a large capacity do not exist any where close to me. I wish I would have shipped everything to Cash if I knew this would happen.



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The fence is pretty dang straight with no twist, I checked it with my 48" B&S camel back. There is quite a bit of meat on the face. Close to a 1/2" thick.

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I have never sent him work but from his knowledge shown here and machine list I'd recommend the gentleman in post #3.
The cost of your 4 hour drive to and back should cover shipping it at bit further.
Finding "good" people to grind large machine tables and such is hard and a bit of a crap shoot.
It's more than just having a big grinder.
Bob
 
Here is the planer table, they had to take 20 thousandths off this to get rid of the scratches. Lips on both sides, no issues. This just reinforces the WTF on the jointer table ledge.

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Let's separate the issues, you apparently did direct the shop to do something and presumably they quoted you based on that spec.
So they are in the wrong. Whether they did the right thing or not. :)

However, grinding between ledges on a planer bed, is a whole different issue than setting up jointer tables and aligning a functional feature for precision on perpendicular faces. Very few people actually use a rabbet ledge anymore, but if the machine is made to new standards as you suggest that direction was, then the ledge needs to be vertically square with the table face (no lean either direction) and aligned lengthways to be near perfectly square with the axis of the cutterhead. A cosmetic dress will probably not interfere too much, given the vanishingly rare use of the feature, but there is a difference.

I've ground small (12" wide) planer tables between rails, it's trivial. The critical concern is to be sure the bed is parallel with all the roll features &/or the wedge, if it is a wedge bed. That part is not trivial.

If you were paying someone 10k+ to deliver you a Yates American jointer that was basically brand new with a modern head, would you want those pretty tables and that ugly looking ledge left?

First off, I seldom do cosmetics. I rebuild industrial woodworking machinery for my own shop, and have done so for others.
To answer your Q, I would accommodate a customer, but for my own use, I would not touch the rabbet ledge, except to de-rust and perhaps get any paint a finish speckles off, while addressing shop rash with a quick file, before having the working surfaces ground. Most of the machines I've worked on include rescraping alignments & have included grinding or planing surfaces, and making missing parts. But I have always been about function, not looks. I try to leave the most metal in a machine as possible, rather than remove all induced cosmetic damage. A good example is, say the typical chisel and bit holes in old mortise machines. Due to the way they hump (like some BP tables) a mortiser table might require .030" or more off the surface to get it flat as a reference to re-scrape the ways. But getting under the last chisel/bit "00ps" could easily take another 1/16" or so. I strongly prefer to make the table flat, and leave the extra thickness. I hate (& avoid) buying machines where someone obviously excessively ground tables and systems to make them pretty when a lot less metal off would have left them just as functional and more durable.

smt
 
They had the jointer table fixtured to grind.

All they had to do was make sure it was parallel, maybe dress the wheel and take a couple passes off the ledge.

Obviously I am simplifying it, but they did almost all the set up work that needed to be done.

This isn't a question about your preferences. It's a question about why and where to turn.

If someone wants me to paint them purple with polka dots, it's their money.

My customers desire is quality machinery that looks and functions better than it did new.

If I can find a reliable shop, lots more tables and surfaces will be getting ground.

There is 5/8"+ worth of cast iron, what is a few thousandths?



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"I found one place close, but their price was so high I knew that they didn't want to mess with it, I get that.

Why does it seem this kind of work is all but gone, or that there is no one left that actually knows how to do it?

Makes me want to find a planer and large grinder. "

You sent some interesting parts in to be ground, and the one place was so expensive they must not have wanted the work. At least that's what you may think.
The fence for the jointer has the two projections on the back side that make it pretty challenging to run on a surface grinder. When your machine was manufactured, they had a fixture to hold this part, and many other parts in the planer. You bring a part like this in to be ground as a one off, getting it set up to grind will take
longer than the actual grinding. 36 by 36 inch parts, are pretty WIDE parts. That requires a pretty large grinder. Finding a planer and a grinder isn't hard, but by the time you get a large grinder running, most shops don't want to GIVE AWAY their time. I have a large (36 by 10 foot) Mattison, that it's shocking how many people figure they should get some large part ground flat for a hundred bucks. Doesn't work that way. There's way more to grinding than just picking up a grinder and you're all set. Send your work to Cash, and forget about just picking up a grinder. What a professional grinder shop charges, is worth every penny of it. If it was easy, you wouldn't be struggling to find a shop.

Think about how you would grind that planer fence.It almost looks like it's the cast finish on the back side. If it has NOT been machined already parallel to the front side between the two projections, then it would need to be milled. More to it than meets the eye. It looks like they went, and tried to get it set up and just figured it wasn't worth it. Since the first place was TOO expensive, maybe the second place was cheaper because they didn't think it out. MAYBE the expensive place might have been the better choice. Someone with big grinders, that know how to run them, shouldn't have to work cheap.
 
"I found one place close, but their price was so high I knew that they didn't want to mess with it, I get that.

Why does it seem this kind of work is all but gone, or that there is no one left that actually knows how to do it?

Makes me want to find a planer and large grinder. "

You sent some interesting parts in to be ground, and the one place was so expensive they must not have wanted the work. At least that's what you may think.
The fence for the jointer has the two projections on the back side that make it pretty challenging to run on a surface grinder. When your machine was manufactured, they had a fixture to hold this part, and many other parts in the planer. You bring a part like this in to be ground as a one off, getting it set up to grind will take
longer than the actual grinding. 36 by 36 inch parts, are pretty WIDE parts. That requires a pretty large grinder. Finding a planer and a grinder isn't hard, but by the time you get a large grinder running, most shops don't want to GIVE AWAY their time. I have a large (36 by 10 foot) Mattison, that it's shocking how many people figure they should get some large part ground flat for a hundred bucks. Doesn't work that way. There's way more to grinding than just picking up a grinder and you're all set. Send your work to Cash, and forget about just picking up a grinder. What a professional grinder shop charges, is worth every penny of it. If it was easy, you wouldn't be struggling to find a shop.

Think about how you would grind that planer fence.It almost looks like it's the cast finish on the back side. If it has NOT been machined already parallel to the front side between the two projections, then it would need to be milled. More to it than meets the eye. It looks like they went, and tried to get it set up and just figured it wasn't worth it. Since the first place was TOO expensive, maybe the second place was cheaper because they didn't think it out. MAYBE the expensive place might have been the better choice. Someone with big grinders, that know how to run them, shouldn't have to work cheap.
Been around long enough to know when a price is thrown out that means they don't want to do it. 3k for fence and table lip, ok sure thing. The rest of the surfaces were done already by the place I originally took them. Jointer fence and table lip only.
Sorry, but 3k+ for those two means they don't want to do it.

Fence will need to have to flats milled on the back side first, no big deal.

Yeah, all the time is in set up, kind of like my 6 and 7 head moulder..




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"I found one place close, but their price was so high I knew that they didn't want to mess with it, I get that.

Why does it seem this kind of work is all but gone, or that there is no one left that actually knows how to do it?

Makes me want to find a planer and large grinder. "

You sent some interesting parts in to be ground, and the one place was so expensive they must not have wanted the work. At least that's what you may think.
The fence for the jointer has the two projections on the back side that make it pretty challenging to run on a surface grinder. When your machine was manufactured, they had a fixture to hold this part, and many other parts in the planer. You bring a part like this in to be ground as a one off, getting it set up to grind will take
longer than the actual grinding. 36 by 36 inch parts, are pretty WIDE parts. That requires a pretty large grinder. Finding a planer and a grinder isn't hard, but by the time you get a large grinder running, most shops don't want to GIVE AWAY their time. I have a large (36 by 10 foot) Mattison, that it's shocking how many people figure they should get some large part ground flat for a hundred bucks. Doesn't work that way. There's way more to grinding than just picking up a grinder and you're all set. Send your work to Cash, and forget about just picking up a grinder. What a professional grinder shop charges, is worth every penny of it. If it was easy, you wouldn't be struggling to find a shop.

Think about how you would grind that planer fence.It almost looks like it's the cast finish on the back side. If it has NOT been machined already parallel to the front side between the two projections, then it would need to be milled. More to it than meets the eye. It looks like they went, and tried to get it set up and just figured it wasn't worth it. Since the first place was TOO expensive, maybe the second place was cheaper because they didn't think it out. MAYBE the expensive place might have been the better choice. Someone with big grinders, that know how to run them, shouldn't have to work cheap.

Can we just take a minute to say, "Holy SH|te! It's Brian!" Hi Brian! Get tired of playing with your toys? :cool: Hope you've been well.
icon14.png
 
Cash- Interesting you seem to have a dresser mounted on a slide behind your wheel. Any reason for this rather than the overhead dresser using the wheel traverse?

Zahnrad- I Am getting tired of playing with my toys. But occasionally I come up for air.see a post that kind of strikes me and have to reply. I KNOW I've been negligent in posting on Practical Machinist the last few years. Got back into collecting cars, and buying LESS machines. I've machined about five million dollars of machine tools now, and the THRILL is fading. I'm considering reversing the direction of machines, and making SOME go away.My wife is a little concerned that if I kicked the bucket, it might be challenging to extricate about two million pounds of machines out of my shop. The biggest year in 18 years last year, kept me from doing anything but work. I'm STUNNED at how many nuclear subs we seem to be building. The entire world has NOT gone to CNC machines!

Sorry for the off the post replies. 3K for grinding your parts- well now that you've put a NUMBER to your post, we can have a more informed discussion. In my world, a person could complain if something costs more than a beer. I'm continuously stunned that a person can see five to ten million bucks of machines, and expect work for seventy five bucks an hour. At three thousand dollars however, that's REAL money! You should expect an informed and accurate quote and NOT be left with parts undone.
 
Cash- Interesting you seem to have a dresser mounted on a slide behind your wheel. Any reason for this rather than the overhead dresser using the wheel traverse?

Zahnrad- I Am getting tired of playing with my toys. But occasionally I come up for air.see a post that kind of strikes me and have to reply. I KNOW I've been negligent in posting on Practical Machinist the last few years. Got back into collecting cars, and buying LESS machines. I've machined about five million dollars of machine tools now, and the THRILL is fading. I'm considering reversing the direction of machines, and making SOME go away.My wife is a little concerned that if I kicked the bucket, it might be challenging to extricate about two million pounds of machines out of my shop. The biggest year in 18 years last year, kept me from doing anything but work. I'm STUNNED at how many nuclear subs we seem to be building. The entire world has NOT gone to CNC machines!

Sorry for the off the post replies. 3K for grinding your parts- well now that you've put a NUMBER to your post, we can have a more informed discussion. In my world, a person could complain if something costs more than a beer. I'm continuously stunned that a person can see five to ten million bucks of machines, and expect work for seventy five bucks an hour. At three thousand dollars however, that's REAL money! You should expect an informed and accurate quote and NOT be left with parts undone.

The hydraulic over the wheel dresser is better in many ways- I can dress on the fly, I can be plunge grinding and dress, and it is much more precise than the stick mounted dresser on the slide. Mattison had a lot of issues to get he stick mounted dressers to dress the wheel true. They would have to scrape the slide to get this dialed in and it was just a pain.

The Hydraulic dressers were an option since the 60's but many customers did not buy them due to cost. In the long run- they are a huge money saver.

Did you put your 36" x 120" in storage?
 
Cash- Interesting you seem to have a dresser mounted on a slide behind your wheel. Any reason for this rather than the overhead dresser using the wheel traverse?

Zahnrad- I Am getting tired of playing with my toys. But occasionally I come up for air.see a post that kind of strikes me and have to reply. I KNOW I've been negligent in posting on Practical Machinist the last few years. Got back into collecting cars, and buying LESS machines. I've machined about five million dollars of machine tools now, and the THRILL is fading. I'm considering reversing the direction of machines, and making SOME go away.My wife is a little concerned that if I kicked the bucket, it might be challenging to extricate about two million pounds of machines out of my shop. The biggest year in 18 years last year, kept me from doing anything but work. I'm STUNNED at how many nuclear subs we seem to be building. The entire world has NOT gone to CNC machines!

Sorry for the off the post replies. 3K for grinding your parts- well now that you've put a NUMBER to your post, we can have a more informed discussion. In my world, a person could complain if something costs more than a beer. I'm continuously stunned that a person can see five to ten million bucks of machines, and expect work for seventy five bucks an hour. At three thousand dollars however, that's REAL money! You should expect an informed and accurate quote and NOT be left with parts undone.
Read much? Quoted 3k for fence and table lip only, by another company.

They didn't really want to be held to 3k.

Need to get with Cash and get this figured out. Hermance head is going in jointer today and I need to get this done.



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Mr Green- Read MUCH ? Well no, I'm almost illiterate. I really am not good at reading someones mind, and when their writing is not exactly clear, I don't waste TOO much of my time scratching my head wondering WTF they mean. Read through your own replies and put it all together, and your 3K quote for JUST two surfaces after another shop did whatever turns into so much blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to try and figure out your entire sequence of events. Go get your own grinder and planer and have at it, You're obviously smarter than the rest of us. It's all easy.
 








 
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