Landis 1R OD grinder help needed.

I recently bought at auction a Landis 1R. It is the version which has Hydraulic table traverse and manual wheelhead feed. I have the operators and parts manuals but the info I need is not adequately explained. The course feed handwheel works as expected although it has around .020" backlash. The fine feed knob does not work at all, I have put a tenths indicator on it and get nothing. The manual just points to knobs and wheels and describes them. There is a three position knurled screw in the top of the housing, and also a clutch knob in the center of the large handwheel. I have tried all combinations of settings with no results. Can anyone tell me if I how to set it up for fine feed. Also is .020 backlash excessive and could this be part of the problem.

Regards,

Julian

No specific knowledge on Landis, or operation of machine, but.
Fine feed with hydraulics sounds like minute quantities of oil flowing thru
tiny ports and holes. You might have something plugged. If it was moved
recently, might have stirred up mud in Hyd. tank. Possibly a clean out
is in order. Not sure who if anyone supports the brand these days.

The knob should push in to activate the fine feed perhaps turning the big wheel to find where it goes in. .020 slop is not a problem because the wheel head is heavy enough that it will not travel with not a turn of the hand wheel.,
Swing the fine feed around to the right so the contact dowel bumps the stop.. with not the dowel bumping the stop it will not work.

The old style landis the large wheel was locked with a pullout dog at the top & the fine feed in the center was roatated clockwise for .00005” infeed. Those tended to “creep” when you cranked the coarse feed backing out & coming back in. They worked fine with hydraulic wheel retraction (production machines)

Newer style you worked the coarse feed the same but the center fine feed had teeth that engaged & you pulled the knob out & rotated & let it go back in (spring pressure). Those came with .00005” or some had .00002” adjustment. On edit - the pullout knobs if not used for a long time tended to get crap in the fit & had to be disassembled to get them going right again...

If there is a hydraulic wheel retraction lever on the front controls, there will be a large chrome micrometer dial on the back left side (for production grinding).

Good luck,
Matt

Good, Here is a you-tube showing the dowel that bumps off the stop at 1:59 of so
Landis 1R 1 x 2 Universal Cylindrical Grinder, Ref.#39A-154 (SOLD) - YouTube

With not the stop it just turns on the big shaft going around and moving nothing..

*The fine feed does not feed it controls the stop position..With the stop dowel on the stop then it will feed.

If you find the time could you (scale) measure the table top width... I have some OD grinder parts I am trying to identify.. and I don't have a 1R at this time.

Buck

Landis 1R wheel feed

The wheel feed consists of a coarse tooth rack and pinion at the base of the wheelhead driven by two sets of worm gears. The first worm gear drives the pinion through a vertical shaft and moves the wheelhead .1" per hand wheel revolution or .001" per hand wheel division. The second worm gear set provides an addition 20:1 reduction to produce a fine feed of .00005" per division. The second worm gear is engaged by pushing in the coarse feed hand wheel clutch knob. It is disengaged by pulling the knob out.

The hydraulic version of the 1R has a piston underneath the wheelhead that preloads the rack and pinion and the first worm gear set. There is no free motion in this gear train. The fine feed worm gear has no preload mechanism. It relies on a mixture of grease, oil, and grinding dust to maintain a tight fit between the worm and wheel.

The .020" of free motion in the wheelhead is what I would expect for the coarse tooth rack and pinion without a preload.

You could remove the problem by bolting a 4" travel air cylinder to the wheelhead base casting and have the piston rod push against the wheelhead. The air pressure setting would require some experiment. This would be an inexpensive fix. The alternative is to operate the wheel feed hand wheel the same way you operate a lathe cross slide hand wheel.

The hydraulic 1R also has a 2" travel plunge and retract motion built into the sliding rack. The manual version of the 1R has the rack bolted to the base. You will need to get used to backing off the wheelhead with the hand wheel. You are limited to one turn with the stop pin in the mid position. This is dangerous.
You can slice open the back of your hand when using a micrometer to measure work piece diameter with the grinding wheel rotating.

My long term plan is to make a swinging cover over the grinding wheel housing so that the grinding wheel is completely covered when the wheelhead is retracted.

The manual infeed 1R has a 3 position stop pin which controls the operation of the wheel feed. According to the operator's manual, the forward position is used to set the zero position of the stock removal scale.

In the mid position it engages the fine feed and limits the coarse hand wheel to one turn of motion. This is what Buck is describing in the previous post.

In the back position it enables the coarse hand wheel to position the wheelhead forward or backward with multiple turns of the hand wheel.

So try the following:
1. Fine feed clutch knob pulled out (This may not be necessary)
2. Stop pin all the way back
3. Turn the coarse feed hand wheel clockwise to remove the gear train free motion. Watch the dial indicator.
4. Stop pin at the mid position
5. Fine feed clutch knob pushed in
6. Turn the fine feed knob clockwise. Watch the dial indicator.


The sequence of operations will be different when setting up the wheelhead for grinding. The setup is described on pages 29 and 30 of the operator's manual.

Do not attempt to adjust the spindle bearings until you have read the Landis - Balsiger patent number 3,285,679 dated Nov. 15, 1966. The patent describes how the bearings work. The operator's manual provides no guidance. The patent is available for free on the internet.

The bearings are permanent provided that you do not loose oil flow. A failure of the spindle oil seals will damage the babbit linings. The spindle motor interlock only checks for oil pressure at the pump. There will continue to be oil pressure even if the oil is pouring on the floor from a failed seal. The rubber seals on your grinder are at least forty years old.

Robert

Thanks for the reply, that solved the problem. The table width on my 1R is 5". The raised way is 1.5" wide on the front and rear of the table. That leaves a 3" trough in the center. If you have any parts that will fit mine and you are planning to sell them, I would definitely be interested. You can call me @865-203-2030.

Thanks Again,

Julian

Thanks for the info Robert. What you suggested solved the problem. I think this machine had set for a long time because the spindle was stuck. I made a clamp for the drive pulley and broke it loose. I topped up the oil in the spindle case and began to run it in 5 minute intervals paying attention to the housing temperature. I can now run it for 3 hours continuously and the hosing seems to stabilize at about 124 deg F. On stopping the spindle sticks again but can be freed up by pulling on the wheel. Is this normal? Also can the oil seals be replace without upsetting the bearing fit?

I am intrigued by the method you suggested to remove the backlash from the feed rack, are you pushing the wheelhead toward the rear of the machine.


Thanks again,

Julian

Landis 1R

Hello Julian:
My knowledge is limited to the Landis 1R I bought at scrap value due to the crashed spindle that failed from a leaky pulley side oil seal. I need to reline the babbit surface on the microsphere bearings. The difference between a bearing that is too tight and one that is too loose is about .0001" on the radial clearance between the bearing and spindle. The clearance is adjusted by loosening the t-bolt spreading the microsphere bearing apart and then turning the 4" diameter lock ring clockwise to reduce the clearance. The lock ring presses against a tapered ring which compresses the microspere bearing. The lock ring has a coarse thread so a small turn of the ring makes a big difference in the radial clearance. If you need to adjust the ring first make scribe marks on the adjusting ring and its housing so that you know how much you turned the ring.

The spindle seems to be locked up when cold because the oil viscosity is high. At operating temperature the viscosity drops sufficiently to free up the spindle.

1. The first thing to do is change the spindle oil. This means flushing out all of the old oil and then replacing with the Mobile Velocite 6, ISO 10 oil. There is no oil filter on the 1R spindle. You need to change the oil. This may fix the sticky spindle problem. If there is a lot of sludge in the oil sump you may need to do a second flush. If the rubber oil seals are very old they may have become brittle and may be grabbing the spindle diameter rather than sliding. Also keep in mind that the previous owner may have topped up the oil sump with the wrong viscosity oil. What you have now may be too viscous at room temperature.

My plan is to make up a new retaining ring that holds a conventional lip type oil seal. I do not know if the original Landis oil seals are available.
Replacing the oil seals requires unscrewing the four socket head bolts that hold the retaining ring and its housing to the wheelhead casting. There is a gasket underneath this that will have to be replaced. Once the gasket is replaced the microsphere bearing will need to be adjusted.

It would be a good idea to verify that the spindle is not rubbing on the bearing adjusting ring. There may be some v-belt dust in the ring radial clearance. If you do unbolt the retaining ring housing, it would be worthwhile to pull the spindle out and inspect the microsphere bearings to verify that the babbit lining is intact. This would also provide the opportunity to remove any sludge that may have built up in the spindle housing or in the spring loaded thrust bearing. There is very little clearance between the spindle and housing. A stuck thrust bearing would require a high starting torque to break free the spindle.

The air cylinder would be pushing the wheelhead forward with respect to the wheelhead lower slide/casting.

If you get a chance you may want to clean underneath the wheelhead turntable and see if you can break free the single clamping nut. Once the nut is loose, a spring washer will push the turntable up about 1/32" to allow the wheelhead to swivel.

You also need to verify that the two way oil injection pumps are working and that oil is actually flowing through the plastic and copper tubes to the ways and feed rack. The table injection pump is triggered when the table hits the reverse stops. The wheelhead injection pump may not be installed on your manual feed machine. In that case you need to verify that the manual oil pump is doing its job.


You may have noticed that there is no filter on the hydraulic system. It would be best to drain the oil, wipe out the sump with a lint free rag and then refill with new oil. If you put this off too long you may have to deal with a jammed reversing valve in the table hydraulics casting. Once you have known good oil in the tank it should be possible to suction it out once a year, run it through a filter, and then reuse it.

Robert

Thanks Robert, do you know where the spindle housing drain plug is? I haven't been able to find it. I don't know if I have the nerve to pull the spindle to replace the oil seals, I read the patent on the bearings and I would think it is a nightmare to set that spindle up with the proper clearance. In fact how would you know if the bearing clearances were correct? I will be the only operator for this grinder and it will not be left unattended with the spindle running, so hopefully I would notice if a seal suddenly started leaking. Is 124 degrees spindle housing temperature reasonable after a 3 hour run and if so wouldn't that indicate the spindle and bearing system is OK and would not warrant disassembly. Something with a bearing fit as precision as this could only be made worse if disassembled by someone like me with no experience with precision grinders. However; if a seal were to blow out I would have no choice but to dig in and try to fix it, but it would be the last resort.


On another note does anyone have electrical schematics and oil circuit diagrams for both the way oiling system and the hydraulic system. My machine Serial number is 843-59 so the year of mfr. must be around late 60's early 70's. I have the operators manual and the parts manual but none of the other diagrams. I'd be happy to pay costs associated with copying and mailing. I can also make available the manuals I have to anyone who needs them.

I have cleaned out the Bijur oil tank and pump and found a tar like sludge in it. There were some oil lines returning oil to this tank from open catch reservoirs under each end of the table. Surely this is not correct. Hence the need for oiling and hydraulic circuit drawings. The manual even states to not reuse oil collected in the catch can at the left end of the machine.

Julian

Hello Julian:

I am not sure where the drain plug is. The wheelhead casting design changed over the years. The parts list in the manual does not match my version of the 1R.
There are four 3/8" socket head set screws on my 1R, two on the left side and two on the right side of the wheelhead. They are at the correct height to be drains. I tried unscrewing the one closest to the spindle oil pump. Nothing came out. My manual shows a drain plug in the back of the wheelhead. I do not have anything back there. This is going to be a research project.

I can provide you with a hydraulics schematic and a way lube schematic for the last 1R made. The dates on the drawings range from 1986 to 1989. This machine had a stepper motor controlling the wheelhead feed. The hydraulics and lubrication lines did not change to my knowledge. Send me a address and I will mail them to you.

The electrical schematics for the stepper motor Landis will not apply to your grinder. Landis seems to have continuously changed their wiring through the years.I have the obsolete two fuses for three phase style wiring on my grinder. I did some wire tracing and some guess work to determine the function of each relay.

I did take a look at the lubrication schematic and there appears to be a problem.

The schematic calls out 1.7 gallons of 35 SUS @ 100 deg F spindle oil. The manual I have says that the spindle uses 1 gallon of Socony Mobile Vaculine E which appears to be 60-75 SUS at 100 deg F. Mobile velocite 6 is the best match for the 60 - 75 SUS. Mobile Velocite 3 is the closest match to the 35 SUS specification.It is a much thinner oil. This may explain why your spindle does not want to start up from rest.

The 124 deg F temperature of the wheelhead sounds about right. I would expect a 50 deg F temperature rise above room temperature. A thinner oil would have less of a temperature rise. Keep in mind that it is the expansion of the oil as it is heated up by the bearing that produces the pressure supporting the spindle. A room temperature oil implies that there is no pressure lifting the spindle.

I have no reference for the 50 deg F temperature rise. If you search old Practical Machinist Landis discussions you will find a description of the wheelhead as being "hot" when it is setup correctly.

What viscosity oil are you now using?

There is another explanation to the starting problem. One of the three phases of the wheelhead 5 HP induction motor may be failing. The motor, in this case, would have little starting torque. The problem could be a bad fuse or a dirty contactor. Could you measure the current being used for each phase when the motor gets up to speed? The wires above the motor contactor may be accessed by a clamp type meter.

I agree that it would be best not to disassemble the spindle. The oil seal could be removed by unscrewing the adjusting ring. It is not necessary to unbolt the ring outer housing to gain access. I did the unbolt method because the adjusting ring was stuck.

The bearing clearance is adjusted by feel and a trial run. The adjusting rings are turned in until the spindle has some resistance to rotating by hand. The machine is reassembled and run for an hour and the wheelhead temperature measured. If it is hot the rings need to be backed off. If cold the rings need to be turned in. The bearing radial gap will also be influenced by how much the locking T bolts nuts are tightened. Each time you do this the babbit lining is deforned slightly so there is a running in period. It is best to leave it alone.

If the thrust bearing collar springs are stuck as they were on my machine, it is more likely that there will be axial play in the spindle rather than the collar jammed tight against the babbitt lining.

The lubrication schematic shows a 5/16" diameter line going from the Bijur tank to the way oil injection pumps. There is also a 3/16" line from the hand pump going directly to the ways. The schematic also shows a 1/2" pipe going from the table oil sump back to the Bijur tank.

Now you know why there are two way lube filters on the back of the grinder.

At least Landis had the sense to discard the used way oil from the wheelhead.

The manual and parts list I have is for the 810-1 serial numbers and up. My 1R is serial number 825-74.

Robert

Landis 1R spindle, velocite 3 oil

The Mobile Velocite 3 oil is a better choice for the Landis microspere bearings provided that there is no wear on the spindle and you can accept the fire hazard of a low viscosity oil. In the late 1960's when this machine was introduced there was no Velocite 3 or equivalent oil available.

Velocite 3 has a viscosity of 2.1 Cst at 40 deg C and .95 Cst at 100 deg C
Velocite 6 has a viscosity of 10. Cst at 40 deg C and 2.6 Cst at 100 deg C

There is a logarithmic relation between oil viscosity and temperature.

The velocite 3 behaves as a multi viscosity oil. It's viscosity changes slowly with temperature. That is a good thing.
It also allows the radial clearance of the bearing to be reduced from .00015" to .00007", for example, while reducing the starting torque of the cold spindle by half.
This assumes that the spindle is actually round and smooth. With these clearances that is a big assumption.

Reducing the clearance by 1/2 increases the pressure supporting the spindle by a factor of 16 for a fixed oil viscosity.

When all goes according to plan you can end up with a much stiffer spindle bearing with lower runout which will also operate at a lower temperature.

If the radial clearance is left at .00015", the starting torque of the spindle is reduced by 80%, the oil temperature rise in the wheelhead will be reduced by 50% and the spindle supporting pressure will be reduced by roughly a factor of 4.

I have left out from this post the equations from the patent which explains the details of this. It is available on the internet for downloading if you are interested.

Velocite 3 has a flash point of 82 deg C. Kerosene has a flash point between 40 and 70 deg C .

Robert

Corrections to a earlier post about the Landis 1R spindle oil seals

The Landis 1R grinder uses metal oil seals on the wheel head spindle. My 1R was missing the oil seals when I purchased it. There was room in the bearing housing for a off the shelf lip seal. I assumed that is what Landis used. I did find the original seal on ebay. The metal seal is a 3/8 wide steel ring with a thin holding flange. The seal inside diameter is about .001" larger than the spindle's 2.500" diameter. The holding flange sits in a pocket in the bearing adjusting nut. The pocket does not constrain the radial position of the seal. The seal self centers when the spindle is turning. The spindle oil that leaks pass the seal is collected in a cavity in the bearing adjusting nut housing and is returned to the sump. The depth clearance on the seal flange is small enough that the oil viscous friction of the flange is larger than the viscous friction at the spindle. This prevents the seal from spinning. There is a larger radial clearance at the spindle adjusting nut that the spindle passes through. It is possible that grinding dust or coolant can enter at this gap and contaminate the oil.

It is a simple maintenance free design. There should be no reason to ever take apart the Landis wheelhead spindle as long as the oil is kept clean and the spindle microsphere bearings are adjusted properly.

The 1R does not have a spindle oil filter. So it is very important to do the every 6 month flush and oil change. The risk is that any sludge in the oil may prevent the metal seal from centering, or worse, get dragged into the bearing and score the babbitt lining.

The 2R, 3R, and 4R Landis grinders were equipped with spindle oil filters according to the sales brochure. So it may be less of a concern for these larger machines.

Robert

Fine feed control on the Landis 1R grinder

A few weeks ago I repaired the hydraulics on my 1R and took the opportunity to trace the hydraulic lines and measure the breakaway force on the wheel head carriage. It turns out my advise about wheel head preloading given to the original poster was wrong.

A few important observations:

All hydraulic fluid contains water and oxygen. If you let a grinder sit for a few months the water will separate from the oil in the hydraulics tank and in the spool control valves. It takes very little rust to jam the spool valves. The table and wheel head pistons are not sensitive to this. The rust is not tightly adhering to the valves and wipes off with a rag.

Hydraulic oil has additives which prevent the rust from occurring. The additives are eventually used up and it becomes necessary to change the oil.

The lesson is that a grinder operated with spool valves should not be allowed to sit idle for more than a few months unless it has been flushed and refilled with new oil. The difference between the farm and ranch store $30 for a 5 gallon pail of iso 32 hydraulic oil and the Mobile/Chevron/Shell $60 for a 5 gallon pail of oil is how much and what type of rust and oxidation preventative chemicals have been added. This may be an instance of getting what you paid for.



The fine feed control knob on the wheel head is not designed to be used to advance or retract the feed when the wheel head is in the advanced position. It takes about 60 pounds of force to break the wheel head carriage free from the ways. When the fine feed knob is turned .00001 ", all that happens is that the oil between the worm gears and rack and pinion final drive gets compressed. The carriage does not actually move. It will not move until the fine feed has been turned enough to cause 60 pounds of force to act on the carriage. Once this happens, the carriage will jump forward and refloat on the way oil. It will continue moving
until the force acting on the carriage drops below the force of the fluid friction of the ways. That might be 20 pounds. Once the carriage stops moving the oil film between the carriage and ways will drain out and you will have almost metal to metal contact. The carriage is then stuck again. The way stick-slip friction does not allow for small predictable movement of the carriage.

The best way to avoid this problem is to always retract the wheel head first before setting the fine feed. For a grinder with manual feed that means backing off the main hand wheel one full turn until it hits the travel stop. This corresponds to 0.1" of carriage travel. On the hydraulic infeed machines the feed rack is retracted 1.00" inch The fine feed is then set. Any strains in the feed mechanism will be relieved when the wheel head is advanced back to the forward position.

For a manual machine the process is repeatable provided that the main hand wheel is smoothly rotated to the travel stop. If the motion is stopped part way and then restarted it may not be repeatable. The feed rack is preloaded by the initial 60 pound brake away force and then kept in contact with the pinion by the 20 pounds of fluid friction. If the motion is stopped part way the preload will be lost. The load is applied to the surface of the rack teeth that face forward.
If a external preload cylinder were added to the wheel head carriage the cylinder would need to push the wheel head backward in relation to the base casting.

In my original post I suggested pushing it forward. This is wrong.


The hydraulic feed carriage works differently. When the carriage is retracted, pressure is applied to the sliding rack to force it backward 1.0". The same pressure is applied to the preload cylinder to force the pinion to remain in contact with the rack.

When the carriage is advanced, the way oil injector is triggered which refloats the carriage. The pressure is then released on the preload cylinder and the carriage does a fast forward relying on the motion to maintain a loaded rack and pinion. There is a spool valve assembly in the base casting that prevents oil pressure reaching the hand wheel advance piston until the fast advance has come to a stop. What the machine operator sees is a smooth motion going from a fast feed advance to a regulated slow feed of the hand wheel until it hits the travel stop.

The carriage is stuck to the ways at this point and sinks down a bit. A timer is started to complete a sparkout grind . When complete, the retract lever is automatically reset, the way oil pump injects once more refloating the carriage and then the carriage moves back one inch.


The Landis machines prior to the R series applied pressure to the preload cylinder when the carriage was in the forward position. It appears that design prevented repeatable positioning of the carriage. Landis took out a patent in the 1960's for a .0001" fine feed mechanism that changed the carriage position
by adjusting the pressure in the preload cylinder. Small changes in the preload would cause flexing of the wheel head. The idea behind the preload only during wheel head retraction design is that the preload is now consistent and independent of pressure changes in the hydraulic system. The preload cylinder
is used to prevent the rack and pinion from banging together during the fast advance.


In summary, adding a preload cylinder to a manual Landis 1R is a dumb idea.

Carriage way stick-slip friction is not a problem on modern grinders. The hydrostatic way designs are frictionless.
It is also not a problem on box way milling machines. My box way bed mill with glass scales can repeat position to .0001" The difference is that the milling machine has a way loading of 4 psi with an iso 68 way oil in addition to a preloaded ball screw and glass scale feedback for the servo motors.
The Landis grinder has a way loading of 8 psi with a iso 32 way oil. It was intentionally designed to prevent the carriage from floating on the way oil. I suspect a floating wheel head carriage cannot do a repeatable sparkout grind. It may also cause a poor finish from vibration.


Robert

Might be considered a far fetched idea, but I put a few drops of Tufoil on the
bed plate of my Hardinge Chucker. When I ran the carriage back and forth,
and the Tufoil worked its way between the surfaces, most all of the stick-slip
disappeared. It was like the Gibs were suddenly backed off.
Quite amazing really.

Tufoil

A Myford cylindrical grinder has a #65 block connected to a cable that pulls BACK on the wheelhead, removes the backlash quite well. As the infeed handwheel advances only .025" per rev the force to turn the handwheel is very light. On a machine with an advance of .100" the force would surely be greater.
Just to give you a idea of what others have done.