Noobie with a cylindrical grinder- operating and safety advice needed

Hello Gentlemen,
Without any intentions of buying a cylindrical grinder, I ran across this Karstens at a dealer i frequent and figured what the hell! Rigger dropped it off last week. This thing is in great shape and came with a ton of tooling. First thing I want to try are finishing bearing journals on shafts I repair. Problem is I don't know the first thing about running one of these. I have fired it up for a minute, had to re-wire the spindle (rigger disconnected it before realizing electrical cabinet would be far too difficult to remove from machine). Then I noticed the hydraulic pressure was 0 so I shut her down till i can fill the oil reserve. Anyway, the thought of that big azz wheel spinning in my direction is a little scary I have to say. Wife sure would be pissed at me if i killed myself with this thing! I would like to think i'll just stand out of the line of fire of that wheel, but kinda hard to do that when the controls span both sides of the machine. So, let's talk safety. PPE? What to do, what not to do. Proper operation of a c/g. Expected cutting depths and traverse speeds. I did a search but did not turn up much on safety specifically regarding cylindrical grinders. Also, is anyone familiar with this machine or similar to this machine? Anyone know how the controls work? I can usually figure things out, and maybe with the hydraulics working the machine will make more sense. But, right now I am not understanding how to use this machine. I think the machine should be somewhat automatic? Set the depths on the control and stop on the in feed and she should cycle till it gets to the stop? Yes? No?

Thanks

Machine Shop Practice by K. H. Moltrecht. Volume 2 chapter 12.

rustytool said:

Machine Shop Practice by K. H. Moltrecht. Volume 2 chapter 12.

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ordered, thanks

It's kind of scary knowing that if it goes wrong and the wheel explodes your right in the line of fire.
I'm curious to know if anyone is using CBN wheels for cylindrical grinding ? Greg.

Does it have a tail-stock?

Safety... If it has quick retract of the wheel head, know for absolute sure when you quick feed in to the workpiece the wheel will not hit the workpiece, throwing it to hell and doing possible damage to the wheel and or spindle....

I was lucky, it only threw the workpiece at me which by that stage was doing a zillion rpm..

When grinding between dead centres make the drive pull the drive dog on the work and not push it... You usually have the option in the work head of the centre being stationary and the outer section rotating, or everything rotating..

I am a complete n00b as well with grinding but managed to muddle my way through picking up tips and tricks all over the place...

Nice looking machine. Can’t tell from here if that is an ID grinding spindle or what? You should get operators manual if going to run in auto. *Check to see way oilers are getting ways oiled and lubrication where needed . Manual feed far away from wheel to play with controls...But best to have the book.

As Richard mentioned “having a tail stock?”

Long setting machines can have out of balance wheel from coolant getting hard on down side so if noticing a wobble spindle or circular grind wobble part finish check balance of wheel. Not much one can do except to replace such a wheel.
It might have a bump cycle to bump in and out of a shoulder so definitely the operators manual good is for your use.
Maintenance manual also if you do in-house repair.

CBN wheels need a break dresser to true up so not a very good idea unless you have a specific need perhaps grinding chrome-up repairs, and with CBN for shoulder bumping another headache dressing shoulder …Still CBN will grind all. .For steel an oxide wheel is quick and easy to buy and dress. Yes I have ground CBN wheels with green wheels but that was taking off and mounting to another grinder..

For between centers grinding run dead or grind head stock center in head and touch up occasionally. Tail live center should be ground .0000 and set to exact height of head stock center. (what you take from one side is left to the other so centers must be true.

You know I always say slow turn any long setting spindle and jog start one that is up and running.

Quote; [Set the depths] much depends on the work required and wheel break down.. in- feed to the in-side of the work and then travel away or said walk out from the shoulder keeps wheel taper down and going the right way, and the inside wheel radius small for less dressing.. to finish shoulder with small amount of stock left set bump and touch shoulder to dimension often a good method..Difficult to do any (much) walk away from the machine work. Yes some times one might set to last part stops and expect a little measure and finish due to wheel break-down, or set to last part plus expected break down with really knowing the part and machine..

Richard King said:

Does it have a tail-stock?

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Yes it does. Also has dresser and steady rest

RC99 said:

Safety... If it has quick retract of the wheel head, know for absolute sure when you quick feed in to the workpiece the wheel will not hit the workpiece, throwing it to hell and doing possible damage to the wheel and or spindle....

I was lucky, it only threw the workpiece at me which by that stage was doing a zillion rpm..

When grinding between dead centres make the drive pull the drive dog on the work and not push it... You usually have the option in the work head of the centre being stationary and the outer section rotating, or everything rotating..

I am a complete n00b as well with grinding but managed to muddle my way through picking up tips and tricks all over the place...

Click to expand...

Thanks, i will keep these in mind

michiganbuck said:

Nice looking machine. Can’t tell from here if that is an ID grinding spindle or what? You should get operators manual if going to run in auto. *Check to see way oilers are getting ways oiled and lubrication where needed . Manual feed far away from wheel to play with controls...But best to have the book.

As Richard mentioned “having a tail stock?”

Long setting machines can have out of balance wheel from coolant getting hard on down side so if noticing a wobble spindle or circular grind wobble part finish check balance of wheel. Not much one can do except to replace such a wheel.
It might have a bump cycle to bump in and out of a shoulder so definitely the operators manual good is for your use.
Maintenance manual also if you do in-house repair.

CBN wheels need a break dresser to true up so not a very good idea unless you have a specific need perhaps grinding chrome-up repairs, and with CBN for shoulder bumping another headache dressing shoulder …Still CBN will grind all. .For steel an oxide wheel is quick and easy to buy and dress. Yes I have ground CBN wheels with green wheels but that was taking off and mounting to another grinder..

For between centers grinding run dead or grind head stock center in head and touch up occasionally. Tail live center should be ground .0000 and set to exact height of head stock center. (what you take from one side is left to the other so centers must be true.

You know I always say slow turn any long setting spindle and jog start one that is up and running.

Quote; [Set the depths] much depends on the work required and wheel break down.. in- feed to the in-side of the work and then travel away or said walk out from the shoulder keeps wheel taper down and going the right way, and the inside wheel radius small for less dressing.. to finish shoulder with small amount of stock left set bump and touch shoulder to dimension often a good method..Difficult to do any (much) walk away from the machine work. Yes some times one might set to last part stops and expect a little measure and finish due to wheel break-down, or set to last part plus expected break down with really knowing the part and machine..

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Thanks michiganbuck, great points, I will check the way oilers, check wheel balance too. It does have some instructions written on blueprints in loosely translated german, really just enough information to get me in trouble, not enough to comprehend how to operate

If running between centers, make SURE you are dogged off securely. If the dog or whatever is driving it turns loose, the part will instantly accelerate to the surface speed of the grindwheel and, if long enough, will jumprope out from between centers and pursue you around the shop for several hours, until it slows down enough to just fall over and kill you. I'm running a 14"x120" capacity roll grinder, so this is probably my greatest fear.

michiganbuck said:

Nice looking machine...CBN wheels need a break dresser to true up so not a very good idea unless you have a specific need perhaps grinding chrome-up repairs...

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You can true a CBN or diamond wheel by mounting a suitable dressing medium on a grinding arbor and dress between centers or in a chuck or collet or whatever the situation demands.

Gene

hydraulic pressure might be zero if the phasing is wrong and the hydraulic motor is spinning backwards. FYI. ran into that last week, actually.

first thing I would do is disassemble the wheel flange and make sure everything is kosher.... Never trust a wheel you have not mountd yourself in used equipment. Ring check it nd remount on clean paper washers....the forehead dent you save may be your own.

Wheel mounts run out even the best and even when new. For that reason I mark the spindle end and the mounts, and then always remount mark to mark. (agree with right and left side mounting that wont work ) Yes someone will say .0002 but for grinding .0002 is a lot. And another will say always dress but dressing bottom and two sides is a time consumer IMHO. I have ground mount faces to true up to zero on the spindle and then the mount is for that one grinder only, but yes that can slightly affect balance so am not recommending same.(taking a wheel off and back on the same mount mark to mark will save some wheel at dressing...
*Yes any wheel taken off mount needs dressing when put back on and any wheel put on any spindle even one on a bench grinder should be dresses before waking away. Walk away from a wobble wheel can get the next guy.. or yourself killed or looses a finger.

Wheel flush can be a good idea for keeping wheels better. That is simply turning off the coolant and letting the wheel spin a bit before turning off the spindle.. Once you get into this habit it will become automatic and cost you no time as the spin off is while you put away your tools. You will have better finishes with spun-off wheels. (mostly for aluminium oxide and green wheels)

Tightening a mount to the spindle is another important point.. Some mounts have a spanner hole in the spindle part and a wrench notch of sorts in the nut. If in doubt check the hand book for proper tightening method- have the proper wenches at the machine and instruct all operators "This is how to tighten my spindle” Firing the guy who hard hammer whacks your spindle is after that fact.

Wheel mount and spindle end threads get wear and can seem to be tight when not ( from stopping in the very same place so often or a build up of sorts).. Best to occasionally hand run the nut full tread in and out to see the thread is smooth running, that alone should keep them smooth.. I have cleaned up the error with a little fine rouge to restore the smooth running feel.

Another thing and I know I will get beat up for this…, I don’t like magnetic base holders around machines. If having a repeat indicator position I like to mount a bracket to attach an indicator in that common place.
Still having one (magnetic base) might be handy for once and a while positioning but clamp on is my first choice.

Quote me: [circular grind part finish wobble] I mentioned in my last post... that can also come from a center running off center so check that before tossing a wheel.

A pile of Universal Back Rests come in handy for skinny work between centers. I need about five more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/johnoder/BS 4 Grinder/DCP_0939.jpg

michiganbuck said:

Long setting machines can have out of balance wheel from coolant getting hard on down side so if noticing a wobble spindle or circular grind wobble part finish check balance of wheel. Not much one can do except to replace such a wheel.

Click to expand...

Don't want to derail the thread too much, but I wanted to know if there is any successful method to recover a grinding wheel from the dried-coolant imbalance, like (maybe) soaking in some warm water if it's a water soluble coolant, or maybe kerosene if coagulated oil(?)

specfab said:

Don't want to derail the thread too much, but I wanted to know if there is any successful method to recover a grinding wheel from the dried-coolant imbalance, like (maybe) soaking in some warm water if it's a water soluble coolant, or maybe kerosene if coagulated oil(?)

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Could not hurt to try on a vitrified wheel (AO OR GREEN) with a warm water and soap soak and wash and then some thing that might be a penetrating solution for an oil base coolant if still needed IMHO. Yes needing new blotters. Resionoid, shellac, rubber, CBN and diamond wheels perhaps not more than a warm soap wash.... but they are so solid I have never seen one out of balance due to coolant dry..still some (many) chemicals might be bad for such a wheel..

Going to one customer and finding a late model (new looking) surface grinder. That customer said "Yah it would be nice but it has a shot spindle." May I have a look? said I...pulled the wheel and ran to find a very good spindle and a throw away wheel.

Could have bought it for a song before telling him it was the wheel but I am not that person.

johnoder said:

A pile of Universal Back Rests come in handy for skinny work between centers. I need about five more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/johnoder/BS 4 Grinder/DCP_0939.jpg

Click to expand...

Johoder, I know all this is old hat for you but for any noobie..
A long part (skinny) can even be a 5/8 x 12” in some cases of what wheel and what material..If you can see deflection with two fingers pressure (perhaps one) the part might deflect.
A slug of children’s modeling clay squeezed to the part if to some area that is not in the grind can reduce deflection and chatter.. sometimes that alone and/or with a back rest (or a few), a nylon post or backer, a pair of bearings on a post, and /or a steady (or two) can help. Yes, and less wheel width with dressing away some of wheel OD -.010 or so.

Some times a softer wheel but then some parts are so very hard they just eat up a softer wheel.

Sorry I forgot the "mount-up".. Best to mark a wheel (one not marked by the manufacturer) for an up position and then put back on any mount that same way. Gravity pulls the wheel down and the little or a lot of hub clearance makes the wheel require less dressing. Also any balance drilling will be better served with doing this way.

Any wheel marked mount up (at new) should be mounted that way.. it is a gravity and clearance thing. Good wheels are holed off center the clearance amount and so run with most true and balance mounted correctly. Yes this is with larger wheels not 7 or 8" as they are (most often) made just to center and have a close fit..