Studer RHU 450 from the 1960s - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Leave the tailstock alone. You can't compare the potential wear on the workhead and tailstock. The tailstock is moved on virtually every setup, the workhead, rarely. as long as you can adjust the taper out of the part , you're golden. It will adjust wonderfully. If you need this machine, get to work. If you are playing hobby shopper then go ahead and fuck it up. It deserves better.

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    Slightly off-topic, but the machine delivery was interesting. It was done with a truck that dates back to the 1980s (according to the driver). In German it's called a "Hubfahrzeug" which means "lift-car". When it drives in, all looks normal



    Then these legs appear underneath and lift up the back of the truck



    but then the back wheels move out of the way and the truck kneels down in the back



    Inside the truck the fork lift already had the grinder on board, and just drove off.





    Definitely the easiest machine delivery so far.

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  5. #23
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    Ballen asked me to comment.

    The one Ytube shows you get a 0.04 rise when measuring the table top and it is what low at the work head end?... I have to admit metric to me is horrible...I have conversion sheets I use to compare metric to inch. If the table top is off that could be the issue. The ways in the one photo look worn. Have you pulled the table to see if the ways under the TS are not starting to gall up causing it to raise? Is there any swarf build up under the swivel plate and table top?

    In simple language and in inches tell me would you what your seeing?

    A couple of things come to mind first. I am sorry but I did not read the complete thread. I just got home last night(midnight) from my 4 weeks of training in UK and Germany. I am pooped.
    Anyway. Did you check the top of the TS quill and see if it is pointing up. On a machine that accuracy I would scrape it TDC test would be 0.005mm (.0002)in 100mm (4") high toward the left side. Also what happens when you lock the TS to the Table and lock the quill ? Does the indicator change? Did yo set the mag base on TS casting and indicator on top and side of quill and check shake when it is unlocked?

    Did you check the dead center and the taper hole for burr's or dirt? Did you turn the test bar 360 degree's with indicator resting above the center point to see if there is any run out?

    If you check all of this and get good readings I would blue up the table and rub the TS base to the tabe and check to be sure the base is not high in the middle or any burrs exist. Then before scraping I would slide in 0.025mm (.001") shim stock under the 4 corners of between the Head stock and see how much that raises the bar. That way you can estimate how much it is off as sometimes using a long bar can multiply the error your seeing.

    I also miss your support in the Reconditioning forum as it has been high-jacked by a few people and many regular members hardly write in there anymore.

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    Hi Richard,

    Thanks for looking here. I'll give partial answers now, more complete answers when I have checked again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    The one Ytube shows you get a 0.04 rise when measuring the table top and it is what low at the work head end?.
    The table top tilts upwards towards the tailstock 0.008mm = 0.0003". I need to check that this is not dirt/rust between table and table top.

    Did you check the top of the TS quill and see if it is pointing up.
    No, I'll put it on a surface plate and check this.

    What happens when you lock the TS to the Table and lock the quill? Does the indicator change?
    Good idea, I'll check this. As far as I could tell the TS barrel is lapped to the housing so I don't expect play here, but I will test it.

    Did you set the mag base on TS casting and indicator on top and side of quill and check shake when it is unlocked?
    I tried to wiggle the TS it with the test bar in place, but not by itself. Will try this.

    Did you check the dead center and the taper hole for burr's or dirt?
    Yes, I did. All OK.

    Did you turn the test bar 360 degree's with indicator resting above the center point to see if there is any run out?
    I checked this along the test bar at a number of points. The test bar is good to a micron or two, so 0.001mm = 0.00004".

    If you check all of this and get good readings I would blue up the table and rub the TS base to the table and check to be sure the base is not high in the middle or any burrs exist.
    I did stone the TS base and check for burrs. But I did not blue it.

    Then before scraping I would slide in 0.025mm (.001") shim stock under the 4 corners of between the Head stock and see how much that raises the bar.
    I'll do that. I also have 0.002" or 0.003" shim stock which should bring it pretty close to correct.

    Note: I also put a test bar into the work head and used that to check if the work head spindle was parallel to the table top. It tilts upwards very slightly, about 4 microns (0.0002") in 200mm (8").

    One other thing I checked: I put the TS right next to the work head, and with a centricator I checked that the TS barrel is above the work head spindle line.

    Richard, thanks for commenting, especially right after getting back from a European trip. I'll do the checks you suggested then report back here later in the week.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    [QUOTE=ballen;30One other thing I checked: I put the TS right next to the work head, and with a centricator I checked that the TS barrel is above the work head spindle line.
    [/QUOTE]

    Instead of the TS barrel, install a dead center and check that, shank or ground point?
    Same result??
    John

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    Hi John,

    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    Instead of the TS barrel, install a dead center and check that, shank or ground point? Same result??
    Yeah, same result. The MT2 taper is correctly centered in the TS barrel.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I'd get back on to " Studer " and see if they can supply you with a copy of the " test certificate ". That'll tell you exactly what their plan was regarding the raised tailstock. I agree that the tail stock should be higher but 0.002" seems slightly excessive on a machine of that size. I realise that when you're doing small work the tail stock will get moved quite a bit. On the machines I worked on ( mainly " Churchill " ) the tailstock was also spring loaded so you could remove components without actually moving the tailstock.
    Very handy if you're grinding a series of components.

    " Studer " had a very good reputation over here and that's a nice machine but I'm surprised you didn't go for another " Jones & Shipman ", they made pretty good small cylindrical/universal grinding machines and you would be keeping it in the family so to speak.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    I'd get back on to " Studer " and see if they can supply you with a copy of the " test certificate ". That'll tell you exactly what their plan was regarding the raised tailstock.
    Very good idea! I'll follow up.

    I'm surprised you didn't go for another Jones & Shipman.
    I am very happy with my J&S 540, which I bought because it was in such good condition. (I have now reconstructed the history of the machine. It was purchased in 1986 and used on-and-off for a few months. Then the controller for the permanent electromagnetic chuck failed. After that, the entire machine was shoved in a corner and forgotten for the next 30 years, until I bought it and replaced 5 Euros of failed parts in the controller).

    In fact I would have been happy to get a J&S or a Myford cylindrical grinder, if I had found one in equally good shape. But this Studer just looked too good to pass up. I may eventually regret it if parts and accessories are too expensive or impossible to get.

    An experienced grinder hand, who is a friend of a friend, is coming by after Christmas to give me some instruction. I've been busy with work, but will get back to the tailstock this weekend.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Very, very nice machine. If you were in the states I would try to buy this from you. I have a 1988 Tschudin. Holds 50millionths all day just like my new Toyoda CNC grinder.

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    Hi Richard,

    Thanks again for your comments above. I've spent some more time on this.

    Since you're not a metric guy I'll do everything in inches and metric. To help myself keep track below, one thousandths of an inch is 0.001" = 25 microns. A ten-thousandth 0.0001"=2.5 microns, and 1 micron=0.00004" is forty millions of an inch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Ballen asked me to comment.

    The ways in the one photo look worn. Have you pulled the table to see if the ways under the TS are not starting to gall up causing it to raise? Is there any swarf build up under the swivel plate and table top?
    You got me worried so I pulled off both the swivel table and the moving table. Here are some pictures of the moving table








    and here are a couple of pictures of the ways









    What you saw before was galling or pitting at the right end of the triangular section. Fortunately that seems to be isolated. There are a handful of other galled bits and two long parallel scratches that go along a part of the triangular section. The scraping marks are still visible everywhere although at the rear left of the triangular section they are partly polished away.

    Bottom line: I think the ways are in pretty good shape, and now they are getting a good cleaning and I have verified that the oil feed is good.

    My plan is to lightly stone the scratches and galled/scarred areas to make sure that there is nothing projecting upward, then clean and reassemble. Is that reasonable?

    It was messy under the swivel table, and I have cleaned that up. Here is the moving table top and the bottom of the swivel table.





    I've felt these over for burrs and stoned the corners/edges

    Here is the top of the swivel table



    Something that surprised me, and helps to explain what I was seeing before, was that the swivel top is not a constant thickness. The thickness varies by about 40 microns (almost 0.002") from one side to the other.

    I also checked the three pads on the top of the moving table, and these rose up by a total of 8 microns (0.0002") towards the headstock. I was able to check only 400mm = 16 inches of the travel (full travel is 550mm = 22 inches).



    So the swivel table is less accurate than the table below it. Unfortunately the swivel table is too long for my surface grinder. But I don't think this will affect the grinder's accuracy much if the grinding wheel is on centerline.

    Did you check the top of the TS quill and see if it is pointing up.
    I checked the TS quill both on a surface plate and on the swivel table top. I'm using a good MT2 test bar, and I have rotated it and also cleaned and checked the taper and get the same results in all cases.





    The tailstock barrel is pointing upwards as one moves left towards the headstock, Over 200mm = 8", it rises a lot: 100 microns = 0.1mm = 0.004".

    Off topic: the only part of the machine that is not smooth, quiet and precise was the drive for the workpiece, which depending on speed made some rumbling and vibrating noises. That's why the work head is open, visible in the photo just above. I found that the poly V belt had absorbed oil or coolant and swollen by a couple of mm (0.1") in thickness. Also the drive pulley was a sloppy fit on the motor shaft. So I bored this out, shrink fitted a bushin and slotted it, and am now waiting for a replacement belt to come in the mail. Also cleaned and replaced the grease in the work-head drive ball bearings (work head spindle is a solid bronze bearing).



    Also what happens when you lock the TS to the Table and lock the quill ? Does the indicator change? Did yo set the mag base on TS casting and indicator on top and side of quill and check shake when it is unlocked?
    All good. The tailstock barrel is not worn and shows no wiggle.

    Unless you tell me otherwise, I'm going to get everything cleaned up and back together, then do another round of measurements on the tailstock. But it's really weird. Here's what the bottom of the tailstock looks like:



    The only thing I can think of is that it was taken from another machine (or the work spindle was taken from another machine) and so they don't match.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 12-29-2017 at 03:28 PM.

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  16. #31
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    It seems you are missing the motor and bracket for the ID spindle
    That would worry me more as the spindle itself
    Plenty of ID grinding spindles for sale of different brands I have about 5 I think laying around Among them a brand new J&S
    That bracket you have to fabricate Then you can adapt the bore for the size of spindle you have

    Nice machine BTW

    Peter

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    Hi Peter,

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    It seems you are missing the motor and bracket for the ID spindle. That would worry me more as the spindle itself.
    Yes, you are right, I was not using the correct words. I should have said that my machine came without an internal grinding attachment (motor, pulleys, housing, spindle).

    Nice machine BTW
    Thanks. If you come across a Studer ID attachment or other stuff that would fit, please let me know.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I would not worry about the tailstock height. The machine appears to have seen very little use. Put a piece between centers and adjust the taper out. I'm sure it will cut a cylinder. Make parts. Be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Thanks. If you come across a Studer ID attachment or other stuff that would fit, please let me know.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    If you find one it will be attached to a machine So my best bed would be to find a complete machine in poor condition that could be had cheap
    To fabricate a bracket like that is no to hard to make from a weldment
    Perhaps you could put a boring bar in the workpiece head and bore the hole for the spindle in line
    I probably have a brand new spindle that could be fit

    Peter

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    I would never "just it put back together as the ways are close to having stick slip if it didn't have it before. Ballen you know enough about scraping as the scraping depth should be a minimum of .0002" and a max of .001" Make up a surface gage and measure the depth of the scraping pockets. From the scraping it appears to me they had an apprentice scrape it. The scraping on the of the TS was done with a pull scraper and that is what caused those scratches (corner or to course of grinder wheel). I have seen this before when an inexperienced pull scraper tech uses to flat a carbide blade. Even the unworn areas looks like 10 PPI but 50% POP.

    The galling is from poor lubrication and poor oil groove designs. When you see galling in the middle of a way and it's out there alone, it's caused by no oil could reach that place.
    it got stick slip, and the iron pulled out. The ways under the headstock are the worse because it weights more and the grit reaches that end first.

    The area where the oil is suppose to flow out of those lousy designed oil grooves didn't let the oil flow into the low oil pocket scrape marks wore away and scratched or galled. Thinl of it as being as rubbing 2 flat gage blocks together. Sticksion...Putting it back together that way would be looking for more trouble sooner then later. Slick slip under the work head first.

    Do you have a Kingway type fixture to measure those worn base ways? I would also at the minimum square cut the ways and give it new oil pockets and as I said a minimum of .0002" deep. It maybe a Studer but they use a Moglice type material on the bed as they must have had major issues with that design. The machine looks good above where it could be kept clean.
    Happy New Year :-) Rich

    Pic's: Of a Studer Cylindrical Grinder I scraped in MN in 2013.It has the Moglice material on it. On the next post you can see the round dimples Studer molds on the Epoxy Granite Base. The one picture showed the wear in the Moglice before we sent the base out to be ground on a Super big Way grinder in Oklahoma City and the first picture shows how we oil flaked the Moglice to get oil pockets. 2) is how I indicated the swivel plate 3) testing the wheel head 3) taping corners to see if table is solid to bed (it's on a Myford, just wanted to show how I do it)) 4) New oil grove design
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20140723_142439.jpg   20140730_094504.jpg   20140610_145201.jpg   2014-02-26_13-50-05_372.jpg   20140722_160949.jpg  


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  23. #36
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    More pictures:

    L to R:
    1) Worn Moglice before we sent it out to grind the base, 2) Wheel Head base ways we tested before sending out, see dimples the factory molded in. 3) Foreman at MN Grinding testing table bottom while on 3 points on granite plate.4) Base after grinding and flaking I used yellow spotting ink to match fit table to bed
    5) Table top I measured and scraped so the top was co-planner (parallel) to Wheel Head ways, those numbers are tenths .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2014-02-25_13-25-24_236.jpg   20140610_145232.jpg   20140718_144452.jpg   20140722_162929.jpg   20140724_130433.jpg  

    Last edited by Richard King; 12-31-2017 at 07:21 AM.

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    If this was in the " Rebuilding Section " I would agree with Rich regarding the ways. It all depends on how urgent it is to get the machine into production. If it's urgent I'd break up the shiny areas with a scraper, stone everything down, fill in any serious flaws in the ways, make sure that the lube system is working 100% and get into production.

    If the machine is a " project " in itself you can do what ever you feel like doing.

    I remember getting hauled over the coals by one MD regarding a repair I was doing on one of his machines. He thought I was being overly thorough and he wanted the machine back in production ASAP. He said " The thing is Tyrone, we're in the rubber machinery re-building game, not the machine tool re-building game ".

    So we didn't fit the automatic lube system to the 5" spindle Hor Borer as I wanted to. About 2 years later the cross travel ways " fired up" so badly I had to jack the bottom table up off the saddle to start repairing the ways !!

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Tyrone's story reminded me of a rebuilding shop owner where I used to teach his men and a few outsiders to scrape down in Virginia. I used to teach everyone in the 5 days to scrape 40 points per inch so they could scrape straight-edges, jig bores, grinders like this one and told them to scrape to 20 points on most machines.

    2 years after I had taught his first group of guys I came back and he said "you have to back me up on this!" We walked down to his rebuild shop and one of his best guys was scraping a Bridgeport and it had 40 PPI on it.

    I said "Hey didn't you remeber we don't scrape conventional machines to 40 PPI, just 20 PPI?"

    He said "I figure since I know how to scrape 40 PPI, I'll scrape all the machines I work on to 40 PPI" The shop owner got so mad...and said real loud "If you want to scrape your personal machines in your garage to 40 PPI you can, but this is a business and we need to make money!!!"

    The tech never thought about the owner had quoted the machine to "not to exceed" a certain price and the more money it took the less money came into the company. The guy never figured it out and the shop owner fired him because of his scraping to good.

    Remember high number of points make the machine last longer. You can have a machine run as accurate on 10 PPI but will wear out faster then one riding on 40 PPI. Because of that guy, I stopped teaching students to scrape 40 PPI in the basic classes as it takes a lot longer to do it and now I teach more about scraping and alignment.

    So Ballen could just square cut and that means to scrape parallel lines or pockets on the machine over the tops of what he has now and don't blue it up. This creates new oil pockets but doesn't improve on accuracy, just the life of the ways. Happy New Year.

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    Hi Richard,

    As always, thanks for contributing your expertise and experience. And happy new year!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    Make up a surface gage and measure the depth of the scraping pockets.
    I took a 24 x 150 x 10mm ground parallel (1" x 6" x 3/8") and clamped on a magnetic indicator with a 2 micron/division test indicator (Rich: slightly less than a tenth per division). Then I slid this along the table ways and bed ways, both flat and triangular.

    Rich, you are right, on the back side of the triangular bedway, especially near the work head, the indicator barely wiggles when I go over what is left of the scraping marks. Whereas in the middle of the flats, there is typically between 4 and 8 microns (1.5 tenths to 3 tenths) of motion. In some places there is more, it's not very consistent.

    I can also confirm what you mean about the stick slip. In places as I was sliding the parallel along it was wringing to the bedway.

    The galling is from poor lubrication and poor oil groove designs. When you see galling in the middle of a way and it's out there alone, it's caused by no oil could reach that place.
    I think you are right. A few observations about this.

    - I think the design is that the long central groove is supposed to carry oil partway along the ways, and then it's supposed to transfer from there to the next grooves when the table is traversed. But if you are doing short parts, this won't happen because the long central groove is broken and won't reach the neighbouring ones. In the manual it even mentions that if you are doing short parts, from time to time you should run the table back and forth to the ends. Yes, bad design.

    - I think the PO might not have had ordinary hydraulic oil rather than the hydraulic/bedway stuff. I drained out all of the hydraulic oil yesterday and have ordered 40 liters of Shell Tonna S3 M 68 as a replacement.

    - According to the manual the hydraulic system should be running at 7 bar, but it's running at 5 bar. I want to see what it does with fresh oil of the correct type. I will readjust the pressure regulator if necessary.

    Do you have a Kingway type fixture to measure those worn base ways?
    I don't, but if needed I could make one.

    I would also at the minimum square cut the ways and give it new oil pockets and as I said a minimum of .0002" deep.
    If you or someone else here could briefly describe the process, I would like to do this. I can surface grind a piece of cast iron and practice on that. (If I am nuts, please tell me and I will look for someone locally to help with this.)

    Tyrone: I don't like to use machines if there is something that is wrong and using the machine is making it worse. I don't have a big budget and I don't have much experience. But I am patient and not in a hurry. So when I first get a new machine I like to go through it, noting what's wrong and fixing the easy stuff. This is also a way for me to learn all of the controls and features, by seeing how it works. Here is the filter just before the reducing valve that feeds oil up to the ways:



    On this machine I have now finished a complete maintenance as per the instructions and also fixed some small things. I can't contemplate a complete re-scraping of the machine, but since it tracks very straight I think the fundamental geometry must still be intact. So the idea of scraping new oil pockets makes sense, if I can learn how to do it and be done with it in a week or two.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    On the one picture showing the scraping on the bottom of the Tail Stock you can see the wear on the front leading end and edge. All machines wear more there because?? The dirt goes into that end and it doesn't have wipers. Your suppose to clean the surface before moving it forward. Also look at where the T-Slot is. That surface is original as it doesn't wear there. Ballen could use a surface gage while the TS is flipped over to see how much wear it has. :-)


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