What brands and what tooling to look for in Tool and Cutter Grinder purchase

I have the tool and cutter grinder bug. (Maybe worse than the flu) What brands are desirable and what are the pitfalls in considering a used grinder?

For instance, near me there is an Alexander brand T+C Grinder that might be a candidate. But, I really don't much about T+C cutters except that I like to be able to sharpen my own tools and I think having one would be the ticket. Sendng them out my be more cost effective, but by nature I like to be able to do my own.

I would expect to be sharpening carbide end mills and HSS end mills to be its primary job and would be for my own use, not as a sideline business. From what I read here they can be useful for a number of other tasks too.

Sorry for the vague post. But, if I knew more I could ask a better question.

Denis

Denis:

You are a healthcare professional, so read up on the dangers of carbide dust both in the (personal) environment, and in aqueous solution if/as you work. Decide if this is a factor that still makes sharpening commodity products like EM's worthwhile.

I do think the ability to sharpen carbide is worthwhile and can be managed. Most usefully for custom tools and quick sharpen jobs on single point carbide. Also for the occasional "emergency" situation. EM's may or may not fall in that category for you.

If you go through old posts on the subject, a surface grinder and an airbearing are the most useful combo if your primary projected use is EM's. Even if you get a T&C grinder, the airbearing is the essential piece.

If you contemplate tapered tooling and perhaps reamers, the T & C pulls ahead as the basic machine.

A T & C is also wonderfully useful for cylindrical grinding, taper and straight shanks, spindles, shafts, etc. The big inconvenience is the small dials and large increments on the infeed. Using a 10ths indicator to register infeeds can obviate some of that issue.

The minimum kit for a T & C is a good set (OEM, e.g.) of purpose made centers. Next is a workhead. Powered is handy for the cylindrical jobs, and for spinning in some tools prior to sharpening. With a workhead, you can do most of the typical jobs, including in a pinch, EM's; though not with near the facility of an airbearing for small cutters. A workhead can be contrived to work wing cutters, saws, etc, etc.

If you decide to do saws or plain milling slotting cutters or similar on a regular basis, a gearcutter or saw sharpening accessory is useful, especially for the stagger or ATB pattern cutters.

A set of expanding mandrels is useful to do plain milling cutters, or similar larger cutters with a hole in the middle. The type that have centers in each end, are tapered, and the expanding parts slide over the shank. Assemble the shaft with the expander, slide the tool on, slide the tool and expander down toward the wide end until the tool "grabs". Then thump it solidly on a wooden bench or similar to set it. Then put between centers, add a finger rest, etc.

Above assumes sets of collets, centers, fingers, rests, at least one micrometer setting finger/rest, and bushings as necessary.
Then there are the grinding wheels.

smt

stephen thomas said:

Denis:

You are a healthcare professional, so read up on the dangers of carbide dust both in the (personal) environment, and in aqueous solution if/as you work. Decide if this is a factor that still makes sharpening commodity products like EM's worthwhile.

I do think the ability to sharpen carbide is worthwhile and can be managed. Most usefully for custom tools and quick sharpen jobs on single point carbide. Also for the occasional "emergency" situation. EM's may or may not fall in that category for you.

If you go through old posts on the subject, a surface grinder and an airbearing are the most useful combo if your primary projected use is EM's. Even if you get a T&C grinder, the airbearing is the essential piece.

If you contemplate tapered tooling and perhaps reamers, the T & C pulls ahead as the basic machine.

A T & C is also wonderfully useful for cylindrical grinding, taper and straight shanks, spindles, shafts, etc. The big inconvenience is the small dials and large increments on the infeed. Using a 10ths indicator to register infeeds can obviate some of that issue.

The minimum kit for a T & C is a good set (OEM, e.g.) of purpose made centers. Next is a workhead. Powered is handy for the cylindrical jobs, and for spinning in some tools prior to sharpening. With a workhead, you can do most of the typical jobs, including in a pinch, EM's; though not with near the facility of an airbearing for small cutters. A workhead can be contrived to work wing cutters, saws, etc, etc.

If you decide to do saws or plain milling slotting cutters or similar on a regular basis, a gearcutter or saw sharpening accessory is useful, especially for the stagger or ATB pattern cutters.

A set of expanding mandrels is useful to do plain milling cutters, or similar larger cutters with a hole in the middle. The type that have centers in each end, are tapered, and the expanding parts slide over the shank. Assemble the shaft with the expander, slide the tool on, slide the tool and expander down toward the wide end until the tool "grabs". Then thump it solidly on a wooden bench or similar to set it. Then put between centers, add a finger rest, etc.

Above assumes sets of collets, centers, fingers, rests, at least one micrometer setting finger/rest, and bushings as necessary.
Then there are the grinding wheels.

smt

Click to expand...

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Stephen.

With respect to the issue of healtth risks and tungsten carbide. I think those risks can be made acceptable by using a proper respirator (not nuisance dust mask) and using coolant. Since my use would be occasional, and since these kinds of exposures usually involve risk proportional to degree of exposure, I do think the trade-off is acceptable to me in this case. I already do some carbide end mill sharpening on my SG uusing the ubiquitous stand-up shapener, fixture spindex, and for some boring bars and the like in a simple vise.

In view of your commets here and similar ones you and others have made in prior threads, I think I will rethink the T+C sharpener bug. What drives my self-sharpening interest is just the convenience of being able to tune up a cutter (or a small collection of them) when they have lost their edge and not fall victiim to the urge to "get by" until I take it in pitfall.

Still think I will be keeping an eye out for a well tooled T+C should one happen to appear on the local Craigs. What spurred my interest this time and may have resulted in a bit of an impulsive post was a T+C that appeared on the local Craigs. It was jsut a pretty bare machine though.

Denis

Denis,

Having a sense of how your mind works, I think you would probably be fascinated by some of the rigor and intricacies of grinding, not to mention the capabilities it opens up. But sharpening small EM's is low on the list of "cost or time effectively useful" activities once past an admittedly engaging learning curve.

I have used a Cincinnati #2 T & C to cylindrical grind shafts, spindles, tapers including MT5; and a couple ball bearing races. This includes a factory high speed attachment for doing internal features, bores, and tapers. The T & C is excellent to modify or sharpen reamers including changing a helical bridge reamer into a large taper reamer for large taper pins. It has been used for some ops making small cutters. Due to the option to rotate (and on some machines nod) the wheelhead; a T & C is easier & usually faster than a surface grinder to use for sharpening or making wing cutters, and for sharpening plain milling cutters of all sorts. A lot of this work is most convenient between centers. Though sometimes it has to be done with a workhead or index at one end and a center at the other. The convenience of a micrometer adjustable swiveling top table (Typical on any T & C ) is immeasurable compared to a surface grinder for many of these ops.

However, for small cutters, both to make them from HS blanks, or to sharpen existing tools such as EM's, I tend to gravitate toward the surface grinder and use accessories that are easy to plop down on the magnet, locate to a rail, and begin grinding. These include your typical chicom spindex for straight forward work including spinning down tool shanks. I have actually used one in the past to do EM flutes, the inconvenience being no integral finger support. A Suburban Master grind is available here for closer tolerance but I tend to "save" it. The actual essential cutter re-grinding tool is the aforementioned Weldon airbearing with finger. Supporting that for tool making, and sometimes faster for end work are a PC101 to do the ends of EM's, Drills, and especially taps. I also have a wonderfully complex "R & A Machine" spindex with adjustable cam action for the ends of small EM's, drills and step drills, and taps. (Still can't find any more about the R & A, even on this list. It seems to be rather rare and little known). Sine & compound sine chucks (magnets), toolmaker and sine toolmaker vises round out the equipment.

http://www.mwdropbox.com/Dropbox/Weldon_Model_200_Manual.pdf

http://www.bmctool.com/html/pc_101_cb.html

http://www.subtool.com/st/mg5cvs1_master-grind_spin_index_fixture.html

If you start to build tools, and radius and angle dresser can make some ops a lot more convenient, or even make possible grinds that otherwise would have to go to WEDM.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rad...v&sa=X&ei=MSrFVNWDBM2iyATRlICQBA&ved=0CFIQsAQ

Of course any of the accessories described can also be used on the T & C. But in most cases it is more convenient and easier to quickly located them on the surface grinder.

If you get a T & C grinder, don't go too small. Even my Cincy uses up table real estate quickly for relatively small cutters. I would not go under a 6 x 18 surface grinder for the same reason. And smaller grinders don't really take up much less space.

smt

Thanks again, Stephen. The links and information above are very helpful.

I do have a very nice LastWord angle and radius dresser that I picked up for a good price. As you know, it is a very useful and well-made classic Made-in-USA tool. I don't use it often, but it comes in handy every month or two and does stone-profiling jobs that would otherwise be very difficult to do. Nothing like being able to put a 45deg angle (or other) on a stone to a minute or less accuracy. Same for radii of a precise shape and dimension.

I will be on the lookout for a Weldon 200. I can see where it will do most of what I will want ot do. Then if a T+C comes along, I'll grab it too. Tool making is a real challenge, but it it also has considerable rewards---a few of which I have been able to enjoy. And enough to prod me along that path. I truly appreciate the opportunity to get some guidance here from people with experience in that area.

Denis

I found a small KO Lee on Cl in Mukilteo.
At $250 it seemed cheap, but of course it came with nothing.
So...
Sensitive Workhead ~$400
Harig air bearing ~$200
centers ~$150
"universal" tool holder ~$200
arbors, adapters, fingers, wheels, collets, etc. etc.
Ended up spending way more then I should have.
I love messing around with it, but I doubt it will ever save me a dime.

Josh

I will echo what others have said about accessories/tooling. Most of the cost is in the tooling/fixtures for making the machine useful. Don't bother buying one without the accessories, otherwise you will spend all of your time searching eBay/Craigslist looking for this stuff and paying through the nose for it.

I am in the same boat as you are: I got into tool grinding mostly because I wanted to, rather than a necessity. It won't save me money, but I find it useful. I started with a small-ish KO Lee T&C grinder. Now I have a nice 6x18 surface grinder which does the job quite well. Plus, the T&C grinder wasn't accurate enough for surface grinding.

-Justin

Is a dedicated tool grinder more useful for lathe tool bits? I am looking for a way to sharpen my lathe tool bits more accurately when I need to create something weird or something I don't have on hand, like an odd form tool. I just bought what seems to me to be a lifetime supply of freshly reground and sharpened end mills the other day, so the ability to do end mills isn't as important. The ability to do drill bits is important though.

I can barely imagine doing any of the things you propose other than off hand.

However, I have made precision form tools and sometimes want to make a specific grind on a drill bit.

While it is way too expensive new to pay back for most people, and fairly limited in use; I like the PC101 listed above (easy/cheap auction find 'cause few know what they are) as one option. It takes 5c collets, so will do up to 1" through the bore or 1-1/8" EM's. adjustable cam action, cams radially. Does the end lips of drills, mills, and taps (original use). Good for making small cam ground form tools (that can be sharpened merely by taking a flat cut off the face), if the form is dressed into the wheel. Can split points, depends on your wheel and set up on the surface grinder. Tool is used primarily on surface grinder but can certainly be used on T & C. They are dirt simple, but still easier to buy if you find one cheap, than to reverse engineer.

I have found a cheap chinese 5c spindex equipped with essentially various boring bars, as a good platform for some lathe tool geometry. Such as making threading tools (60°. acme, buttresss, whitworth, etc) that can be sharpened merely by a flat grind across the face. Used in conjunction with a surface grinder and a Radius and Angle wheel dresser.

Obviously, sine vices and chucks are good options for many geometries.

Re-looking at your post, maybe you don't have a surface grinder. To me that is the basis for starting. As described more completely in earlier posts.

smt

Correct, i do not have a surface grinder. I was trying to decide which I should get first, the Tool grinder or the surface grinder. Space is a little tight right now, so I figured a TC grinder would be a better choice, albeit somewhat dedicated, as opposed to a surface grinder. I do want a surface grinder, but have to A: find a nice one, B: know what to look for as far as damage or wear when looking, C: figure out if I can actually use one as much as I think I might. I am doing more fabrication than precision machining lately.