Additive manufacturing's impact on subtractive manufacturing - Page 4
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    The fantastic four are never around when you need them

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    came for constructive debate and banter on the topic, instead waded through that trolls posts and lengthy replies. Do not engage... just report his posts so a moderator can delete all record of his existence. Cheers

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    To get back on topic...

    I never understand why anyone who knows anything about manufacturing thinks that 3D printing is going to somehow supplant machining? It never will. Not because of cost or speed or anything else, but because of the laws of physics.

    Anyone who has ever quoted a part or participated in this forum for any length of time has seen a part and immediately said "that's not a machined part, that should be cast". Or "that's a waterjet part", or stamped, or whatever. A milling machine can (more or less) do anything a stamping press can do - so why do we still have stamping presses and still use them to make parts? Because of physics. That manifests in two ways.

    First, sometimes material properties dictate a manufacturing process. A part may need to be forged. Or it may need to be made from metal. A chunk of metal cast in a foundry and cut with endmills into a shape will have dramatically different properties than tiny little particles of metal blobbed together and fused (or glued). In some applications, the properties of the material don't matter, but if you look around - the products made where the material properties don't matter are actually the minority.

    Second, is physics in relation to the economics of the part. Additive manufacturing - by definition - requires putting bits of 'stuff' together to get the whole. The finer the resolution, the more bits you have to add, and putting those bits in place can only happen so fast, and fusing them can only happen so fast. Case in point - plastic printing machines. There is a limit, dictated by the laws of physics, as to how fast you can extrude the plastic. There is also a limit to how small a particle you can extrude. And there is a limit to how fast you can move, because there has to be sufficient time for the deposited material to cool before you print over it. Compare that with injection molding. You have the higher up-front cost of the mold, but the whole entire part is "printed" at one time, in a matter of seconds (or less), and the cooling takes place for every particle of plastic simultaneously. Physics dictates that additive manufacturing methods of producing plastic parts will never ever be as fast as injection molding. It doesn't matter how fast 3D printers get, because molding will always be faster. Because physics.

    Just like CNC machines didn't make stamping presses obsolete, nor did they make metal casting obsolete, nor did they make many other things obsolete... neither will 3D printers.

    They will carve out a niche and will become useful machines in their niche along side other manufacturing technologies. I don't think 3D printers will ever be common place in people's homes - ever. Housewives will never be downloading models to print replacement parts for their dishwasher at home. Some people will - the same kind of people who buy other DIY tools to make their own cabinets or who will take apart their own appliances to fix them - but they will be the minority. 3D printers will be manufacturing tools like other manufacturing tools. The industrial versions will be accurate, capable, expensive and will rapidly evolve just like CNC machines. Home versions will pale in comparison to what the pro versions can do.

    And douchebags like jsmith will remain bitter and angry while they wait for their time to come, when they can push a button on their computer that a smart person invented and a businessman brought to market, and the 3D printer that a smart person invented and a businessman brought to market printed out some shiny gleaming object that they will put on some internet marketplace that some smart person developed and implemented, and he will wait for millions of adoring fans to throw money at him for his gleaming object - because he is, after all, a genius that only needed the right tools to shine. And he will get even more bitter and angry when nobody buys his gleaming object that is surely worth ten times the price he is asking for it... and he will go on the 3D printing forums and bitch at the people making money with 3D printers and tell them they are a bunch of whiny has-been losers and it's funny watching them run scared now that holographic direct-cerebral projection machines are on the horizon, and he will be able to directly beam his inventions right into the brains of his customers without needing their stupid dinosaur machines burning smelly plastic and guzzling electrons to produce archaic tangible objects.

    And he'll go home and kick the dog and work on his resting bitch face.

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    Honestly can't wait until we have the capability for mechanical 3D printing here... like it's already been said, not possible to replace mills and lathes (or laser cutting, bending, welding, router, etc), but it will greatly improve what we can do with limited spindles. instead of machining a set of complex soft jaws thereby taking up a mill that could be producing $$$, at the risk of the jaws not being ideal anyways, a 3D printer can make those jaws overnight and off they go to work in the morning. the same goes for many other parts and special tools around the shop. then you've got little parts a customer wants to prototype, no brainer. gauges for part profiles? bingo. All without distracting machinists, fabricators, or welders from their jobs. Makes a lot of sense from the engineering department...

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    Hey guys... equally new but not quite as stupid as the troll.

    Machining is my college major, so I came to the thread to hear some opinions on if/when it will be phased out by 3D printing. Looks like we're a LONG way from that if/when it ever happens, and it happening is entirely up for debate. Or if I'm to believe the troll, machining will be phased out as soon as he coughs up 30,000 for his 3D printer (never). *sighs in relief*

    From what I've gathered, machining has inherent advantages that 3D printing can never match, as well as cost related advantages that 3D printing can't match for a long time.

    Plus, don't knock the floor sweepers. Been there. Granted, floor sweeping doesn't qualify one as an expert on technology.

    Very interesting thread. Excellent troll smashing. Cheers!

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    In your expert opinion(s), is this a trade worth learning in respect to new 3D printing technology?

    And no, troll, I'm not asking you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    To get back on topic...

    I never understand why anyone who knows anything about manufacturing thinks that 3D printing is going to somehow supplant machining? It never will. Not because of cost or speed or anything else, but because of the laws of physics.

    Anyone who has ever quoted a part or participated in this forum for any length of time has seen a part and immediately said "that's not a machined part, that should be cast". Or "that's a waterjet part", or stamped, or whatever. A milling machine can (more or less) do anything a stamping press can do - so why do we still have stamping presses and still use them to make parts? Because of physics. That manifests in two ways.

    First, sometimes material properties dictate a manufacturing process. A part may need to be forged. Or it may need to be made from metal. A chunk of metal cast in a foundry and cut with endmills into a shape will have dramatically different properties than tiny little particles of metal blobbed together and fused (or glued). In some applications, the properties of the material don't matter, but if you look around - the products made where the material properties don't matter are actually the minority.

    Second, is physics in relation to the economics of the part. Additive manufacturing - by definition - requires putting bits of 'stuff' together to get the whole. The finer the resolution, the more bits you have to add, and putting those bits in place can only happen so fast, and fusing them can only happen so fast. Case in point - plastic printing machines. There is a limit, dictated by the laws of physics, as to how fast you can extrude the plastic. There is also a limit to how small a particle you can extrude. And there is a limit to how fast you can move, because there has to be sufficient time for the deposited material to cool before you print over it. Compare that with injection molding. You have the higher up-front cost of the mold, but the whole entire part is "printed" at one time, in a matter of seconds (or less), and the cooling takes place for every particle of plastic simultaneously. Physics dictates that additive manufacturing methods of producing plastic parts will never ever be as fast as injection molding. It doesn't matter how fast 3D printers get, because molding will always be faster. Because physics.

    Just like CNC machines didn't make stamping presses obsolete, nor did they make metal casting obsolete, nor did they make many other things obsolete... neither will 3D printers.

    They will carve out a niche and will become useful machines in their niche along side other manufacturing technologies. I don't think 3D printers will ever be common place in people's homes - ever. Housewives will never be downloading models to print replacement parts for their dishwasher at home. Some people will - the same kind of people who buy other DIY tools to make their own cabinets or who will take apart their own appliances to fix them - but they will be the minority. 3D printers will be manufacturing tools like other manufacturing tools. The industrial versions will be accurate, capable, expensive and will rapidly evolve just like CNC machines. Home versions will pale in comparison to what the pro versions can do.

    And douchebags like jsmith will remain bitter and angry while they wait for their time to come, when they can push a button on their computer that a smart person invented and a businessman brought to market, and the 3D printer that a smart person invented and a businessman brought to market printed out some shiny gleaming object that they will put on some internet marketplace that some smart person developed and implemented, and he will wait for millions of adoring fans to throw money at him for his gleaming object - because he is, after all, a genius that only needed the right tools to shine. And he will get even more bitter and angry when nobody buys his gleaming object that is surely worth ten times the price he is asking for it... and he will go on the 3D printing forums and bitch at the people making money with 3D printers and tell them they are a bunch of whiny has-been losers and it's funny watching them run scared now that holographic direct-cerebral projection machines are on the horizon, and he will be able to directly beam his inventions right into the brains of his customers without needing their stupid dinosaur machines burning smelly plastic and guzzling electrons to produce archaic tangible objects.

    And he'll go home and kick the dog and work on his resting bitch face.
    Nevermind. Question answered^^^

    Cheers everyone.

    THAT is how you SMASH a troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sm412 View Post
    Hey guys... equally new but not quite as stupid as the troll.

    Machining is my college major, so I came to the thread to hear some opinions on if/when it will be phased out by 3D printing. Looks like we're a LONG way from that if/when it ever happens, and it happening is entirely up for debate. Or if I'm to believe the troll, machining will be phased out as soon as he coughs up 30,000 for his 3D printer (never). *sighs in relief*

    From what I've gathered, machining has inherent advantages that 3D printing can never match, as well as cost related advantages that 3D printing can't match for a long time.

    Plus, don't knock the floor sweepers. Been there. Granted, floor sweeping doesn't qualify one as an expert on technology.

    Very interesting thread. Excellent troll smashing. Cheers!
    Thanks for the compliment, sm412 and the PM!

    I went to college for engineering. You shouldn't worry, IMO... the people saying "3D printing is coming, and CNC machining is obsolete!" are no different than the people looking at those old "the world of tomorrow" TV advertisements from the 1950's and thinking we will all be commuting in flying cars and our homes will have the appliances descent from the ceiling on motorized brackets. Yeah, it looks cool and it's full of buzzwords, but it's not practical.

    It's not practical to mount my TV and my dishwasher and my stove in the ceiling because physics dictates that I need to have a bunch of open space above my ceiling which would be inefficient. And when someone needs 1,000pcs of some 6061 aluminum bracket that holds a lawn sprinkler control module to wall, they can get then CNC machined for $X or get them 3D printed for 10 x $X. Physics ain't changing in our lifetimes, and while 3D printing will get better, it won't defeat the laws of physics.

    I am not an expert because my CNC machines manufacture parts for my own products I designed and that I sell... however the guys who run job shops will tell you that 3D printing is a great tool to sell to clients. Like... "hey, we can 3D print that complex shape for you in 1 hour and have a prototype ready". Nobody is using that for production anymore than someone is using a pottery wheel for mass production of ceramic dinner plates. Not unless someone usurps the laws of physics and makes particles stick together and cool quicker than the laws of physics currently dictate. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

  10. Likes Mike1974, Sm412 liked this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Thanks for the compliment, sm412 and the PM!

    I went to college for engineering. You shouldn't worry, IMO... the people saying "3D printing is coming, and CNC machining is obsolete!" are no different than the people looking at those old "the world of tomorrow" TV advertisements from the 1950's and thinking we will all be commuting in flying cars and our homes will have the appliances descent from the ceiling on motorized brackets. Yeah, it looks cool and it's full of buzzwords, but it's not practical.

    It's not practical to mount my TV and my dishwasher and my stove in the ceiling because physics dictates that I need to have a bunch of open space above my ceiling which would be inefficient. And when someone needs 1,000pcs of some 6061 aluminum bracket that holds a lawn sprinkler control module to wall, they can get then CNC machined for $X or get them 3D printed for 10 x $X. Physics ain't changing in our lifetimes, and while 3D printing will get better, it won't defeat the laws of physics.

    I am not an expert because my CNC machines manufacture parts for my own products I designed and that I sell... however the guys who run job shops will tell you that 3D printing is a great tool to sell to clients. Like... "hey, we can 3D print that complex shape for you in 1 hour and have a prototype ready". Nobody is using that for production anymore than someone is using a pottery wheel for mass production of ceramic dinner plates. Not unless someone usurps the laws of physics and makes particles stick together and cool quicker than the laws of physics currently dictate. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    I'm not trolling you, serious, but the laws of physics may not be changing, but what we are understanding about them are, and FAST. I'm not talking about the size difference between your microwave and a fridge mind you. But fundamental laws, like spacetime as a complete unit, negative/dark (could be mistaken if those are interchangeable, I like to read but know nothing honestly), string theory and how the special relativity may not be so 'special' after all, and what is gravity?? I was watching a program on Nova or something where they proved an atom (or other proton/neturon?) was actually in two places at one time, but yet it was still one single piece of matter. It can make your head start spinning real fast.

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    Sm412

    Keep going on your current course if 3D Printing is the only factor. Machinists, or machine shops, are going to be the first adopters of production level additive manufacturing. Designers and prototypers will be the firt first-adopters (already are) but real production will first be contract-shops and then machine shops.

    IME, machine shops are largely chomping at the bit to be able to justify an additive manufacturing machine in their shop. Why? Because job shops and contract shops are in a VERY competitive business. Every damn shop is looking for some way to wave their big dick around in hopes of attracting new customers and more work. As soon as there is something worth bragging about, they're trying to get attention for it. So having the "latest greatest" or being a 'first adopter' of a new trend is DESIRABLE.

    Don't think it's "precision machining" versus "additive manufacturing" and think of it more as simply "manufacturing" using whatever tools are best. You'll find Renishaw, DMG Mori, Mazak, and others are coming out with very high priced 5 axis machines with integrated additive processes (DMLS I think) so it's not like machinists are anti-AM.

    I've been job hunting recently and I'll say one thing about designers/engineers in my area... there's a lot more mention of "additive manufacturing experience preferred" on the skills requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    Thanks for the compliment, sm412 and the PM!

    I went to college for engineering. You shouldn't worry, IMO... the people saying "3D printing is coming, and CNC machining is obsolete!" are no different than the people looking at those old "the world of tomorrow" TV advertisements from the 1950's and thinking we will all be commuting in flying cars and our homes will have the appliances descent from the ceiling on motorized brackets. Yeah, it looks cool and it's full of buzzwords, but it's not practical.

    It's not practical to mount my TV and my dishwasher and my stove in the ceiling because physics dictates that I need to have a bunch of open space above my ceiling which would be inefficient. And when someone needs 1,000pcs of some 6061 aluminum bracket that holds a lawn sprinkler control module to wall, they can get then CNC machined for $X or get them 3D printed for 10 x $X. Physics ain't changing in our lifetimes, and while 3D printing will get better, it won't defeat the laws of physics.

    I am not an expert because my CNC machines manufacture parts for my own products I designed and that I sell... however the guys who run job shops will tell you that 3D printing is a great tool to sell to clients. Like... "hey, we can 3D print that complex shape for you in 1 hour and have a prototype ready". Nobody is using that for production anymore than someone is using a pottery wheel for mass production of ceramic dinner plates. Not unless someone usurps the laws of physics and makes particles stick together and cool quicker than the laws of physics currently dictate. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    Yep! What you said makes sense. Additive manufacturing will find a niche, but given everything else, it doesn't make sense that total replacement will happen.

  14. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    Sm412

    Keep going on your current course if 3D Printing is the only factor. Machinists, or machine shops, are going to be the first adopters of production level additive manufacturing. Designers and prototypers will be the firt first-adopters (already are) but real production will first be contract-shops and then machine shops.

    IME, machine shops are largely chomping at the bit to be able to justify an additive manufacturing machine in their shop. Why? Because job shops and contract shops are in a VERY competitive business. Every damn shop is looking for some way to wave their big dick around in hopes of attracting new customers and more work. As soon as there is something worth bragging about, they're trying to get attention for it. So having the "latest greatest" or being a 'first adopter' of a new trend is DESIRABLE.

    Don't think it's "precision machining" versus "additive manufacturing" and think of it more as simply "manufacturing" using whatever tools are best. You'll find Renishaw, DMG Mori, Mazak, and others are coming out with very high priced 5 axis machines with integrated additive processes (DMLS I think) so it's not like machinists are anti-AM.

    I've been job hunting recently and I'll say one thing about designers/engineers in my area... there's a lot more mention of "additive manufacturing experience preferred" on the skills requirements.
    I'll keep that in mind. My dad is an engineer. He's working on 3D printers right now. He doesn't seem to think that 3D printing will be capable of phasing out machining.


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