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    Default New 3d metal printer-Looking good!

    It looks like they've finally come up with a practical machine. Models for prototyping and manufacturing.
    Studio | Desktop Metal

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    Looks good, I am very interested in this technology. One of my customers recently had a large aluminum body printed up for a fraction of what I quoted to machine it. I quoted $58K for two parts and they were printed for under $15K. I did some finish machining on the part and was amazed at what the printer was able to produce.

    Make Chips Boys

    Ron

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    "Make Chips Boys" Just not so many of them any more, though...

    Chip
    And I do get the irony.

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    20K more than the Markforged?

    They don't go into the shrinkage very much. Wonder how they deal with it. In fact the whole website is almost devoid of information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swarf_rat View Post
    20K more than the Markforged?

    They don't go into the shrinkage very much. Wonder how they deal with it. In fact the whole website is almost devoid of information.
    They also do not discuss issues of density or material properties re: brass infiltrated steel.

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    to start, I swear I didn't register just for this, but saw the post and knew I could help answer I hope this is ok
    Quote Originally Posted by swarf_rat View Post
    20K more than the Markforged?

    They don't go into the shrinkage very much. Wonder how they deal with it. In fact the whole website is almost devoid of information.
    MF is 99.5k for only the printer. The DM Studio includes printer, debind station, and hybrid microwave furnace for 20k more than their printer. Printer itself is 50k

    Shrinkage is controlled based on material used and properties like wall thickness that is analyzed by the slicing software to scale up the part.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sodickguy View Post
    They also do not discuss issues of density or material properties re: brass infiltrated steel.
    The website could use more technical details, especially relating to material properties, but we're currently under peer review by a couple science journals that I believe contains more mechanical analysis. We also gave a talk at Rapid that discussed these numbers, and I'm trying to find out if this is publicly available.

    In general we see density of the metal at 98%, and we've seen as high as 99.8%. Material properties are are comparable to MIM, and reasonably close to wrought material (I've seen the numbers and they're good, but can't talk in too much detail yet), with the benefit that we can print with sparse infill to save weight. More information will be released at a later date. We aren't trying to say that this is a complete replacement for traditional manufacturing, but a complement to it.

    I'm just getting my feet wet in this community, so hopefully I can help and contribute more on this and other 3D printing topics, but I'm glad to see people talking about this

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtkelly04 View Post
    to start, I swear I didn't register just for this, but saw the post and knew I could help answer I hope this is ok

    MF is 99.5k for only the printer. The DM Studio includes printer, debind station, and hybrid microwave furnace for 20k more than their printer. Printer itself is 50k

    Shrinkage is controlled based on material used and properties like wall thickness that is analyzed by the slicing software to scale up the part.



    The website could use more technical details, especially relating to material properties, but we're currently under peer review by a couple science journals that I believe contains more mechanical analysis. We also gave a talk at Rapid that discussed these numbers, and I'm trying to find out if this is publicly available.

    In general we see density of the metal at 98%, and we've seen as high as 99.8%. Material properties are are comparable to MIM, and reasonably close to wrought material (I've seen the numbers and they're good, but can't talk in too much detail yet), with the benefit that we can print with sparse infill to save weight. More information will be released at a later date. We aren't trying to say that this is a complete replacement for traditional manufacturing, but a complement to it.

    I'm just getting my feet wet in this community, so hopefully I can help and contribute more on this and other 3D printing topics, but I'm glad to see people talking about this
    can you print precious metals? Gold, platinum, silver, etc?

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtkelly04 View Post
    to start, I swear I didn't register just for this, but saw the post and knew I could help answer I hope this is ok
    A manufacturer that has information to share, not just a sales pitch, is always welcome.
    Are you in engineering, management, sales?

    I've had some dealings with MarkForged, will be curious how things go with Desktop Metal.

    And it's OK, we already know (and have been told) we're obsolete...

    This steel 3d printing machine makes machinists obsolete. Goodbye machinists!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    can you print precious metals? Gold, platinum, silver, etc?

    dee
    ;-D
    Sure! Though I wouldn't recommend it. Silver is low temp enough you can practically direct extrude it.

    Gold and platinum are so expensive the waste would be a major concern, but nothing is really stopping you from using our machine with it. Investment casting is still likely the better choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    A manufacturer that has information to share, not just a sales pitch, is always welcome.
    Are you in engineering, management, sales?

    I've had some dealings with MarkForged, will be curious how things go with Desktop Metal.

    And it's OK, we already know (and have been told) we're obsolete...

    This steel 3d printing machine makes machinists obsolete. Goodbye machinists!
    I'm engineering. 3D printing dork and wanna-be machinist. I deal with the motion system primarily.

    MF is interesting but it's strange to me they announce that they're printing in metal and never show how they're doing it? Something doesn't smell right about that to me, but I'll be civil and say the one part that wasn't sanded smooth looked pretty good. They have a very good motion system in that thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtkelly04 View Post
    MF is interesting but it's strange to me they announce that they're printing in metal and never show how they're doing it? Something doesn't smell right about that to me, but I'll be civil and say the one part that wasn't sanded smooth looked pretty good. They have a very good motion system in that thing.
    I've spoken with one of my engineer friends at MF, and yes, they're being careful with information on their metal system. No question in my mind that it's thoroughly legit, and at some point more info will be forthcoming. I understand the caution, the market is very young and rapidly evolving, so having control of your data and trade secrets is quite understandable.

    And yes, they're justifiably proud of their motion control and kinematics.

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    Any one know how they went about solving the temperature modeling problems involved with metal printing? Last I heard you couldn't really rely on any of this to make a structurally sound part because its nearly impossible to predict where the weakest points of the metal will be because there is no way of predicting both grain size and grain distribution. You can end up with random slip planes because you are layering metal on top of hot metal, which in turn makes the next layer hotter than the last, leading to unpredictability with no way of know the temperature adjustments to fix this (from my understanding, I could be butchering that concept). I know that is the big problem with the powdered metallurgy (laser system) ones as well, unpredictability of grain size/distribution. Anyone know any more about this? or how they went about solving this?

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    I think I just found the answer to my own question. They didn't solve it, this metal acts like wrought alloys, which isn't nearly as strong as cast iron due to issues with the micro structure (most likely grain size/distribution). This stuff would probably work well at low temps and low loads but with such a bad creep strength I would be hesitant to put to use anywhere you need serious reliability. Just a heads up to anyone thinking about dropping the money, I can't really see the value in these things.

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    I missed this thread originally.

    Great info. Thanks for the info.

    I'm -very- interested in metals printing. The 'consumer priced' machines are so so close to being in range of what I want to acquire for personal and professional endeavors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egh214 View Post
    ...this metal acts like wrought alloys, which isn't nearly as strong as cast iron
    Did the definition of "wrought alloys" change radically while I was asleep or something? "Wrought" means forged or rolled, which in the case of ferrous metals means substantially stronger than cast iron (think of crankshafts or bolts).

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    Quote Originally Posted by egh214 View Post
    I think I just found the answer to my own question. They didn't solve it, this metal acts like wrought alloys, which isn't nearly as strong as cast iron due to issues with the micro structure (most likely grain size/distribution). This stuff would probably work well at low temps and low loads but with such a bad creep strength I would be hesitant to put to use anywhere you need serious reliability. Just a heads up to anyone thinking about dropping the money, I can't really see the value in these things.
    I've handled a sample metal printed part done by the MarkForged Metal X printer, and while I didn't take a hammer to it, it's not "weak" in any sense of the word. I think you need to do a little more research on the viability of 3D metal printing, as your information is either incorrect or outdated.

    FYI - SpaceX uses 3D printed (DMLS, not what MarkForged does) turbine components in their rocket engines. Spin-spin, hot-hot, work-work. Capisce?

    Direct metal laser sintering - Wikipedia

    Disclosure: I do some contract work for MarkForged and know some of the people there. Not a shill, they don't pay me enough for that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I've handled a sample metal printed part done by the MarkForged Metal X printer, and while I didn't take a hammer to it, it's not "weak" in any sense of the word. I think you need to do a little more research on the viability of 3D metal printing, as your information is either incorrect or outdated.

    FYI - SpaceX uses 3D printed (DMLS, not what MarkForged does) turbine components in their rocket engines. Spin-spin, hot-hot, work-work. Capisce?

    Direct metal laser sintering - Wikipedia

    Disclosure: I do some contract work for MarkForged and know some of the people there. Not a shill, they don't pay me enough for that...
    I am just curious, I know penn state is currently running research into solving this issue. I would assume that for the Main Oxydizer Valve SpaceX printed there was a good amount of post print work done to increase molecular consistency of the part. Also side note, an Oxydizer Valve is a valve that sends liquid oxygen to the turbine...it doesn't spin...it isn't hot...I'll give you the work point, it definitely works. I know they are testing a full engine but haven't used it yet and haven't announced a date to yet which most likely means they are having issues. Also there is a fair chance space X have solved this problem and aren't telling anyone.

    I understand 3D metal printing has come a long way, but the particle size distribution problem is a big issue with powder metallurgy as well, which is essentially the same as DMLS printing.

    I am not saying that you would be able to pick up a metal screw and break it by hand, the term weak is relative to the strength of other parts. I am saying that you couldn't predict its slip plane distribution and thus not predict as well where the weak spots in your print would be, as far as any work I am aware of. Which, like i first said, may have been solved I just was wondering if anyone knew how or could point me in the direction of a paper I would appreciate it. If you have ever used finite element analysis to map temperature distribution it is pretty easy to see where the problems lie (as far as the normal metal 3D printing, not DMLS, that issue comes from the powder itself).

    This is a molecular particle distribution issue, not a, I picked it up and it felt strong issue.....Capisce?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Did the definition of "wrought alloys" change radically while I was asleep or something? "Wrought" means forged or rolled, which in the case of ferrous metals means substantially stronger than cast iron (think of crankshafts or bolts).
    You are right, i definitely butchered that one. I think i was talking about at higher temps, when the carbon settles into stronger places. I honestly can't remember what I meant to say, but it definitely didn't come out right haha! I was pretty burnt out when i wrote the! Thanks for pointing it out, definitely reads stupid lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by egh214 View Post
    This is a molecular particle distribution issue, not a, I picked it up and it felt strong issue.....Capisce?
    I toured SpaceX's manufacturing facility in Hawthorne, CA back in 2011, at that time they showed the group a turbine wheel used as part of their fuel pump system for their rocket motors. Last I looked, turbines spin, and as this was a DMLS part (EOS machines, I believe) I'll stand by what I said.

    The powder feedstock used on these machines has a significant size distribution, but mostly falls in the 10-50 micron range. As a sintered or welded particulate material, I'm not sure where slip planes are relevant, which I would expect would be more applicable to bulk materials.

    But, you're welcome to argue about whatever you'd like. Enjoy.

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    Please provide data.
    This is an engineering/mfct forum for professionals making stuff.

    Print a 16 x 1.5 mm fine-thread bolt, 40 mm thread length, 100 mm total length.
    As strong as You can, nearest a commercial 12.9 grade bolt from my local ISO9000 supplier (Reyzabal, turtle logo, Barcelona, Spain).

    Please send me two samples, hex-head preferred.
    Please tell us what is the elongation and max strength and yield/failure level for same, per Your estimation.

    It is perfectly fine to have low/lower/very low values - just let us know them.
    Tell us the values.
    Send me the sample, or preferably 2, please.

    Understand...
    You/Your company has presented this tech as somewhat good/leading edge in tech/materials strength.
    I do not doubt this for a moment.

    But failure to produce a sample with specs, to us (anyone/everyone) as manufacturing professionals, well ...
    .. Lets just say Your company will never ever get any more venture funding from anyone, unless You have specs and a sample You can make and deliver.

    I am NOT being negative, doubting You, or the company or Your products.
    I am simply asking for Your estimate re_strength, elongation, yield, etc..
    I am asking for an engineering sample, in a forum where YOU chose to present Your stuff.
    PM for details on where to send it.

    Note 200.000+ professionals worldwide watch this forum ---
    and my post is not snarky, assertive, negative.
    I want to see a sample, see it, look at it for finish and fit, test it for strength, yield, failure level / type.
    It is perfectly fine if You want to restrict some data/observations in advance from public presentation.

    Let me know what, if any, You do not want to publish.
    I understand perfectly, having done so numerous times in specific circumstances with working with products of high value.

    If You feel no sample product or data can be made at this time, well...
    at the minimum, do not pretend to present stuff on this forum.
    This is the nr.1 forum in the world for manufacturing professionals, and a lot are international, and a lot are snarky.

    If Your machines make any semi-decent bolts, You probably have a major immediate market- it totally proves the concept in terms of mechanical engineering/strength etc.

    Now - we would like to see how much cattle / hat You have...

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    Is that directed to me? And if it is, please note I've already mentioned it's not my company, I just do some work for them and know some of the engineers.


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