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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wippin' boy View Post
    your argument is still mostly based on the premise 3d printing doesnt belong on your holy machinist site.
    How's that calculate, Wippin' Boy? There are several of us here ( myself included ) that utilize 3D printing in one form or another on a very regular basis. That, combined with the very presence of a sub forum devoted to it seems to indicate that it is welcome by at the very least some of us.

    I don't think anyone's opposed to that. My guess is that people do take exception to hobby level equipment being purported as equal to, or better than, professional level equipment without any semblance of actual comparison and lacking any empirical data for others to evaluate for themselves. Only the word of an unknown who admittedly has a reason to want others to listen.

    Frankly, I don't see this as any different than someone showing up and proclaiming that their RongFu mill/drill is just as good or better than any Bridgeport or Cincinnati and just as capable in certain circumstances, and offering a poor snapshot of a shelf bracket reinforcement as "evidence".

    Would you expect everyone to just accept that and throw accolades? I don't think so.

    So let's get to it. Show off exact same parts, made with both types of machines, complete with build times, resolutions, material costs, and inspection of accuracies and strengths.

    When OP openly admits -
    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    Yep. I agree with the not plug and play.
    one really can't expect people that actually do this for a living to take it seriously.

    Just my two cents. Hoping for change.

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  3. #22
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    And that is the problem with the guys on this forum. They will discredit anyone who claims to do anything different unless it fits into their category of what a "real" machine is.
    "My industrial machine has to be better since it costs $100,000 and your 'hobby machine' is not as good".

    As he said, I am the "unknown" so not only does what I am bringing up not count but I am not worthy to even speak to the elite forum Gods.

    Hey I will admit your points are valid regarding "how" I am comparing resolution and accuracy against the industrial machines. So let me go buy one of your $100,000 machines so I can show a comparison. Will that work? Will that give me more credibility then, especially since the claim now is I "buy all my stuff on eBay". That statement alone tells me that fella knows nothing about actually designing a 3d printer.
    But I tell you what. I do have access to some very expensive 3d printers in town. I actually will do a time vs resolution vs cost comparison. But even then I can almost guarantee it won't matter with you guys. So what is an unknown to do? Maybe disappear from the site forever? Or actually try to have a freaking discussion about machines, (mine included). But that seems to be difficult since most people on here are out just to discredit anyone who doesn't fit their criteria. It's cool though peeps. I see it is pointless and a waste of time to even try to discuss anything with you fellas.

    And yes I said 3d printers are not plug and play and I stand by it. How is that cnc machine? Plug and play? Think about it.

    "Cheers"

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    How's that calculate, Wippin' Boy? There are several of us here ( myself included ) that utilize 3D printing in one form or another on a very regular basis. That, combined with the very presence of a sub forum devoted to it seems to indicate that it is welcome by at the very least some of us.

    I don't think anyone's opposed to that. My guess is that people do take exception to hobby level equipment being purported as equal to, or better than, professional level equipment without any semblance of actual comparison and lacking any empirical data for others to evaluate for themselves. Only the word of an unknown who admittedly has a reason to want others to listen.

    Frankly, I don't see this as any different than someone showing up and proclaiming that their RongFu mill/drill is just as good or better than any Bridgeport or Cincinnati and just as capable in certain circumstances, and offering a poor snapshot of a shelf bracket reinforcement as "evidence".

    Would you expect everyone to just accept that and throw accolades? I don't think so.

    So let's get to it. Show off exact same parts, made with both types of machines, complete with build times, resolutions, material costs, and inspection of accuracies and strengths.

    When OP openly admits - one really can't expect people that actually do this for a living to take it seriously.

    Just my two cents. Hoping for change.
    that statement was aimed at this

    FWIW, though, I pretty much ran out of needing plastic geegaws about the same era that the prizes in the Cracker Jack box got cheaped out of existence.

    Nice bowl. Strictly decorative. Too rough to keep clean.

    How about something to substantiate you claim? Got something that you can put forth as a direct comparison?
    Honestly, i would not want your machine, or the supposedly comparable high buck (undefined) machines if that is the best surface finish they can provide. Or the closest thing to a useful object.
    I agree with your feelings in general
    what drew me into this was the original claim of spam when all the guy did was put up a statement related to low cost machines. the rest is to be hashed out by people that know the field
    which I don't
    My biggest observation still is that at 77 threads this sub needs all the input it can get
    and an in country builder of any class should be welcome
    unless of coarse the moderator makes that call
    which until now he hasn't

  6. #24
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    I like to see any and all professional-related information about 3d printing because I'm always eager to learn more about it. We contract out our '3d printing' (FDM and SLS only so far) and any time we sub things out I look at how much it'd take to do it in-house. I don't like giving away money

    However, clouding the section with hobbyist work wouldn't help this crowd any, I don't believe. The process, machinery, and challenges are all quite different between hobby grade "spider shitters" as I call them (cheap FDM plastic printers) and professional-grade SLS printers or even FDM printers. We have a casting supplier who uses a Makerbot to do 'prototype' investing castings before they're approved for hard tooling expenses. They're garbage. It makes the world hell on us because we, as the machine shop, are being held to the same geometry and tolerances of the finished part, but we're dealing with an investment casting made using a Makerbot-produced pattern. They get a .060 profile tolerance over a 6x10 area, and can't hold it for shit.

    Then we get more 'professional grade' supplier that gives us final parts used for aerospace tooling that come in and pass a .005 profile inspection with flying colors.

    I'm more than happy to discuss 3d printing. I have a google alert set for "Terry Wohlers" because Wohlers Associates is a very good source of up-to-date industry discussion about technology and business/marketing. It's not comprehensive and not sole-source, it's just a very-specific alert that doesn't get a lot of BS with it, and does bring up pretty decent journalists who tap him for commentary, as well as keeps me updated when Wohler Associates spits out another report of some kind.

    tl;dr - just because people poo-poo a hobby grade machine doesn't mean they disregard the entire process in it's entirety. You'll find plenty of people who'll shit talk a Jet import lathe, but that doesn't mean we don't think metal turning isn't worth discussion. It's just that the site is more professionally-geared and topics relevant to professionals are more valid. (there are some old fogeys who poo-poo 3d printing in it's entirety but they're just tired of seeing over-grandiose marketing bullshit and hype-men which I can't blame them for, but they are less likely to go into threads in a section devoted to 3d printing, I'd like to think)

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    So if I understand you correctly you are saying that you have no need of a 3d printer and do not know the accuracy of them. And you are asking for me proof?
    So are you just wanting to try to "bust my balls"? I think so mate.
    Absolutely!

    You were the one that made the claim that yours was equal or better than. Quantify that. Convince me.

    That, in a nutshell, is what I'm busting yers over.

    Cheers
    Trev

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevj View Post
    Absolutely!

    You were the one that made the claim that yours was equal or better than. Quantify that. Convince me.

    That, in a nutshell, is what I'm busting yers over.

    Cheers
    Trev
    So you are just trolling then. You said of yourself that you have no reason to buy any 3d printer. You are only wanting to get in the conversation to pick a fight.

  9. #27
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    Oh and cheers.

  10. #28
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    Jneimen I agree with you on makerbot. But that is only one machine. And have you heard about their recent news?

  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wippin' boy View Post
    so your telling us the surface finish from a 600x400 1/10 of a meg picture.

    bullshit

    your argument is still mostly based on the premise 3d printing doesnt belong on your holy machinist site.

    d put it here. because this is something that is becoming part of the manufacturing system. there is a place for plastic geegaws. and a guy that can build a Geegaw maker (IN AMERICA!!!) is all good by me
    Horse poo!

    My statement, (not argument) was that a claim was made, that was not quantified or substantiated in any way.

    My feelings on the supply of plastic toys, pretty much relates only to what I keep seeing produced by folks that seem to think they are only a wee step from owning a Star Trek Replicator, and that the rest of us should be impressed by the stuff.

    I actually like this tech, I just don't buy in that I will ever need enough plastic cup hooks or whatever, to justify the expense of a home model, and the reading I have done, which is by no means definitive, and mostly around here, shows that the big players have patented the use of most of the technologies that would allow for better surface finishes and resolutions.

    <shrug> The guy wants to claim his cheap machine is better than or equal to the big boys ones, I want him to quantify that. Better resolution? Same at half the price? Three quarters the quality for a lower operating cost? What?

    All I saw was three pictures of a bowl. I already have lots of bowls. So not a compelling reason to own one of these machines, eh?

    Cheers
    Trev

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post

    And yes I said 3d printers are not plug and play and I stand by it. How is that cnc machine? Plug and play? Think about it.

    "Cheers"
    Yes that CNC machine is plug and play. I can move it, hook it up to power, load it with tools, load a program and push the go button and it'll make a part. No fiddling every time it's turned on.

    I have to say for someone who is trying to sell a product you're coming off as pretty unprofessional in this thread
    Jordy

  13. #31
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    Oh so someone writes your gcode, changes your bits when needed, clean up your area (even with dust collection), etc?
    Machines require a regular process. If you call that plug am play then sure a 3d printer is plug and play as well.

    Lawd help me

  14. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    So you are just trolling then. You said of yourself that you have no reason to buy any 3d printer. You are only wanting to get in the conversation to pick a fight.
    Hey, you made the claim.
    Back it up. That is all.

    How better? Why better?

    I don't care that you sell it, designed it, or are an unbiased party.


    Cheers
    Trev

  15. #33
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    And I will you give you those points.
    Like I said even then will it matter if I do? By the response I am seeing it won't. But I will just to at least prove that point.

  16. #34
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    Maybe I misunderstood the whole "additive manufacturing" on "practical machinist" website. Maybe it should be changed to "additive manufacturing for very expensive machines because we can't admit the desktop models can compete forum". Then I would totally get it.

  17. #35
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    my first internet was WebTV 33.6 the only thing it did at a useful speed was type text. now I got enough speed in my pocket to watch movies.and we are only talking 15 or 20 years.
    this stuff is real and people willing to take the shit now will be glad they did.
    hang in there

  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood the whole "additive manufacturing" on "practical machinist" website. Maybe it should be changed to "additive manufacturing for very expensive machines because we can't admit the desktop models can compete forum". Then I would totally get it.
    I think you would likely do a whole lot better ( and do yourself a huge favor ) to start by taking the chip off your shoulder. You are the one that made the claims. The onus is upon you to prove your claim. No one is going to do your work for you. As for your above statement, I can imagine that it's entirely possible that you either haven't bothered to read the Practical Machinist rules of posting, or somehow think that they don't apply to you. I'll save you the effort and sum it concisely - discussion of hobby grade machines is prohibited. Period. Not a little. Not maybe. Not when Joe Shit, the ragman, thinks he's better than you. Prohibited.

    Don't think your machine is hobby grade? Great. Prove it. The world would be better for an inexpensive 3D printer that actually competes with the big boys.

    The ball is in your court. Put up or shut up. It's really that simple. You can play by the rules of the site owner, or you take your ball and go home. Macht nicht zu Ich.

  19. #37
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    If I sound like I have a chip on my shoulder it is because of the unnecessary attitude. But I have admitted when I was wrong and when to guys have good points. I have admitted when your points are valid. I have learned two things. Your little club is only good enough for people you allow in it and those wanting in have to prove it. So until I prove it I will respect all your requests. For now enjoy your club. Your dicks are obviously bigger than mine.

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood the whole "additive manufacturing" on "practical machinist" website. Maybe it should be changed to "additive manufacturing for very expensive machines because we can't admit the desktop models can compete forum". Then I would totally get it.
    No, I think you are still ignoring the fact that when people start looking to add capability in their manufacturing operation, the first thing to come under scrutiny is the equipment to be added. The first part of that scrutiny is specifications for the machine. How does it perform compared to its peers? Will it make the parts that WE want to make? In designing and manufacturing metrology instrumentation as potential product (my background) the first thing that gets examined is "what else is out there?" Who do we need to compete with, and how does their machine compare? What can we charge for the machine? These are all points that any potential user or purchaser will need to cover. If you show comparative performance specs to this audience, that is a start. It's a tough crowd, but the technology has moved past the "WOW" stage by now.

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  22. #39
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    And I won't disagree with that. At all.

  23. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnos1978 View Post
    For now enjoy your club. Your dicks are obviously bigger than mine.
    Well, a man's got to know his limitations...

    Don't like it here? Vote with your feet. The door's that way ----> Don't let it hit you in the ass.

    Frankly, I was really hoping you were made of better stuff and could at least give some answers about why you think your assertions to be true. I would absolutely love to add some more capability to the shop. Especially considering that I just got done machining a few thousand dollars worth of ABS parts. If I could print those at a professional level of quality on par with their machined counterparts, for relatively small expenditure, I'd be all over that opportunity.

    Obviously, you know your machines real abilities, lack thereof, and faults so if you don't think it's up to the task to defend it and prove your claims, I'll believe you. Good day.

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