24" Greaves-Klusman lathe questions

whitneyj · Feb 13, 2018

Good morning All. I've spend a fair amount of time researching lathes in general but these old belt driven units are a bit harder for me to find information for. I'm not a machinist by trade, and barely hobby, so therefore I'm not very familiar with the machine past my basic knowledge. What I'm looking for is general information on the unit, I'll assume hoping for a manual is laughable at best.

I'm also curious about the availability of things such as tool holders, chucks for the tailstock, live centers, a lathe mill attachment, etc. I'm not sure if the ways are a standard dimension so the interchanging of parts from other lathes would be an option?

The issue with my current tool holders (I have 2 and they're mirror images of each other) is it's not perpendicular to the center of the chuck, they angle upward at what looks like a ~20* angle.

I'll assume the taper in the tailstock is just a morse taper?

Bradbrews4U · Feb 13, 2018

You seem to me missing the rocker part of the tool post.
Google lantern tool post and look at the images. You will see a piece that fits underneath the tool holder, and mates with the spherical part of the washer. That will allow you to set the tool on center.
It might just be in that box underneath the lathe. Looks like there is another chuck down there..
The lathe looks to be in pretty good shape, or at least was repainted.
Search here on PM and you will find quite a bit of information on Greaves lathes.

whitneyj · Feb 13, 2018

Thanks, I'll look in the seemingly countless bins that came with the lathe. I don't remember seeing it however, so I may be on a scavenger hunt to find it.

The lathe was in a basement of an old wood mill (converted to a house at some point) in the middle of the north woods in WI since prior to WWII, or so. The gentleman who owned it was a high school shop teacher and was meticulous about everything. I was lucky enough to stumble across the ad as well as have the desire to get it out of the basement (the bed came out of a 29.5"x16" window and the rest was manhandled up a flight of stairs). The lathe itself is in incredible condition and came with an 18" and 24" chuck as well as a decent back plate, tailstock, steady rest, and several hundred pounds of bits, cutters, and items I haven't figured out what they are yet.

I'll dig more into PM for this. I've used GK, G-K, Greaves-Klusman, and Greaves Klusman for my google searches. I hadn't thought to use just Greaves...

johnoder · Feb 13, 2018

Pre 1911 tailstock patent that secured ram simutaneously with a pair of binders actuated by one lever

The "angled" tool holders are made for high speed steel blanks intended to have large top rake - saved considerable hand grinding

Straight - not angled - holders are designated with a T

Thumbnails below later GK cone and gearhead nudging on up to over five tons

You can see the pair of locking elements under the tailstock ram

As far as chucks, your lathe has a very particular spindle nose thread and it would be up to you to duplicate this thread by making a "plug gage" which would then enable the making of chuck adapters often referred to as back plates. There will be no such thing for sale anywhere - primarily because NO ONE but you will have any idea of what the spindle nose thread actually is

whitneyj · Feb 13, 2018

johnoder said:
Pre 1911 tailstock patent that secured ram simutaneously with a pair of binder actuated by one lever

The tool holders are made for high speed steel blanks intended to have large top rake - saved considerable hand grinding

Straight - not angled - holders are designated with a T

Thumbnails below later GK cone and gearhead nudging on up to over five tons

You can see the pair of locking elements under the tailstock ram

As far as chucks, your lathe has a very particular spindle nose thread and it would be up to you to duplicate this thread by making a "plug gage" which would then enable the making of chuck adapters often referred to as back plates. There will be no such thing for sale anywhere - primarily because NO ONE but you will have any idea of what the spindle nose thread actually is

Based off of the google search of lantern tool holder, can I assume the tool holders are relatively standard and I should be able to easily locate some that'll work? If so, is there a size designation chart? This post (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-rocker-style-tool-post-size-question-174164/) gives some dimension, but no chart so I'm not 100% sure what the dimensions are referring to. The width of the HSS?

I'm not worried about the chucks as the 3 and 4 jaw I have are in phenomenal shape and I already have a decent faceplate that I can work off of. Is there another reason I should be interested in potentially changing it?

johnoder · Feb 13, 2018

The dimensions you ask about are SHANK SIZE

I know a few related HSS section sizes

#5 is 5/8 square
#4 is 1/2 square
#3 is 7/16 square

whitneyj said:
Based off of the google search of lantern tool holder, can I assume the tool holders are relatively standard and I should be able to easily locate some that'll work? If so, is there a size designation chart? This post (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-rocker-style-tool-post-size-question-174164/) gives some dimension, but no chart so I'm not 100% sure what the dimensions are referring to. The width of the HSS?

I'm not worried about the chucks as the 3 and 4 jaw I have are in phenomenal shape and I already have a decent faceplate that I can work off of. Is there another reason I should be interested in potentially changing it?

enginebill · Feb 13, 2018

Your tool holder is actually designed to not use a rocker, just a flat washer under the holder just like your setup. Ideally you would have several tool holders to hold the many tools that you would need. You set the tool at the lathe center and you can quickly change tools as needed and no need to center the tool every time. The rockers are left over from the time of hand forged tools that varied in height. I can change tools, with my Armstrong tool holders, on my lathe just as fast as the fancy quick change tool holders of today.
Here is what I have on Greaves Klusman.

k3vyl · Feb 13, 2018

The flat washer is the way to go with Armstrong tool holders.The wedge and washer are ,as someone said, for hand forged one piece tools.Also good tor knurling.Carefully measure the distance between the top of the compound slide and the center of the lathe.Examine the tool holders you have and how high the points of the tools are.You will soon gain a knowledge of what washers you need.The holders themselves give you the fine adjustment by moving the cutter in and out.The holders have varied over the years so you will need various washers for various holders.Williams holders are taller than the Armstrongs in general.These holders can be swapped turned around or whatever without losing center.George Armstrong intended it that way and nobody noticed....

whitneyj · Feb 13, 2018

k3vyl said:
The flat washer is the way to go with Armstrong tool holders.The wedge and washer are ,as someone said, for hand forged one piece tools.Also good tor knurling.Carefully measure the distance between the top of the compound slide and the center of the lathe.Examine the tool holders you have and how high the points of the tools are.You will soon gain a knowledge of what washers you need.The holders themselves give you the fine adjustment by moving the cutter in and out.The holders have varied over the years so you will need various washers for various holders.Williams holders are taller than the Armstrongs in general.These holders can be swapped turned around or whatever without losing center.George Armstrong intended it that way and nobody noticed....

Sounds like I need to cut and face some washers of different heights to get my tool holder to my different heights I need. Easy enough.

I’ll measure the slot of the tool holder to verify which # I need and then locate a straight (designated as T) tool holder.

Now the T slot that the tool holder sits in, this looks very similar to most other styles of tool holders I see. Are those T slots standardized? I have a relatively large pile of carbide cutting tips and a few holders for them, but not a tool holder. It would be phenomenal for those T slots to be of a standard size so I could easily buy a tool holder that’ll fit that for the carbides.

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enginebill · Feb 13, 2018

Aside from the tapers, nothing is standardized in old machine tools.

whitneyj · Feb 14, 2018

That's what I was afraid of. So my options are make one or find something that dimensionally is close enough to work.

sealark37 · Feb 14, 2018

Once you find the dimensions and sizes you need, fleabay is your friend. If you are a true rookie with a lathe, go to ABEbooks.com to find yourself a copy of L.H. Sparey's book: The Amateur's Lathe. It is a wealth of knowledge for the aspiring machinist. It has been said that a small lathe will bite you, while a large lathe will eat you alive. Be careful, and have fun. Regards, Clark

johnoder · Feb 14, 2018

Carbide is in general a disappointment on 120 year old 24" lathes Nothing is right about the machine's design - very low speeds and not very rigid

whitneyj said:
I have a relatively large pile of carbide cutting tips and a few holders for them, but not a tool holder. It would be phenomenal for those T slots to be of a standard size so I could easily buy a tool holder that’ll fit that for the carbides.

whitneyj · Feb 14, 2018

johnoder said:
Carbide is in general a disappointment on 120 year old 24" lathes Nothing is right about the machine's design - very low speeds and not very rigid

What's not mounted rigid enough to handle carbides?

I understand the low rpm aspect and that's difficult to get around safely, but I'm also not sure of the issues that causes...

johnoder · Feb 14, 2018

whitneyj said:
What's not mounted rigid enough to handle carbides?

I understand the low rpm aspect and that's difficult to get around safely, but I'm also not sure of the issues that causes...

Necessary original clearance in plain bearings for spindle coupled with wear over many years

Wear in cross slide and its screw

Wear in compound rest and its screw

Wear in carriage saddle in relation to bed ways

whitneyj · Feb 14, 2018

johnoder said:
Necessary original clearance in plain bearings for spindle coupled with wear over many years

Wear in cross slide and its screw

Wear in compound rest and its screw

Wear in carriage saddle in relation to bed ways

So it sounds more like a wear issue. Understood, thanks.

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johnoder · Feb 14, 2018

whitneyj said:
So it sounds more like a wear issue. Understood, thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A reasonable approach would be both on a single work piece of soft steel

Tool A HSS hand ground with suitable postive rake and honed to cut like a razor (the lathe was intended for just this, or the even earlier Carbon Tool Steel versions)

Tool B any ordinary "suitably shaped" carbide insert - with zero hand work

See which you like best

The first pair of links in my Post #8 here may be useful to you

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/new-hendy-lathe-345898/

k3vyl · Feb 14, 2018

Deleted it

jhruska · Feb 15, 2018

This might be for a later model G-K.
Illustration is from 1922.

John

johnoder · Feb 15, 2018

Wish I had those - that is the late gear head fwd/rev spindle drive clutch

Saw exactly one example - in photos - the long 20 Heavy in Hilmar,CA that eventually got scrapped

Clutch linkage enters head stock adjacent chuck rather than adjacent input pulley

Thumbnails show this - view with chuck is new, view with gearing is old - mine

jhruska said:
This might be for a later model G-K.
Illustration is from 1922.
View attachment 220678
John

24" Greaves-Klusman lathe questions

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