American Watch Tool Co. Bench Lathe???

Hello everyone! I'm a noob to the forum and a complete noob to metal turning but I recently came across an elderly gentlemen that was clearing out his shop/garage and one of the items happened to be an antique metal lathe so I had to scoop it up! I'm a tattooist by trade but I also do a good bit of custom automotive metal fabrication and welding (TIG) in my free-time and I've been looking to become more self-sufficient in that aspect and figured a metal lathe would be a step in the right direction..? A mill is next on the list. Anywho, my research hasn't turned up much info on this lathe. I've been unable to find any other AWT lathes that even resemble this thing? It's relatively large for a Watchmaker's lathe (approx. 30-34in) and I'm not 100% sure that it's even in it's original condition? The gentlemen selling it told me he'd bought it in this condition and that he's owned it nearly 40yrs. He gave me EVERYTHING (collets, cutters, carbides, dial indicator, 4jaw chuck, etc...etc...) that he had that was associated with it and although I've got no idea of it's value I felt like $100 was worth the risk..? At any rate it's mine now!? Lol! So, I'm hoping someone in this very knowledgeable forum can help me figure out exactly what I've got here and maybe shoot me a few pointers on how best to clean her up and where best to begin turning some metal!? Also I'll take some more photos of the whole lot later this evening and post them up asap. Thank you all in advance!

Greetings,

Welcome to the party, deposit your wallet with the guy behind the counter.

The AWT lathe is one of a class of what were-for the time-high precision lathes. Your headstock isn't original, which is why you can't find one that looks like it. Somebody built that headstock when they changed out the cone pulley. The original pulley used flat belts, you've got "V"s. Looks like they kept the original spindle, and probably the bronze bushings, and fabbed up a new headstock for the rest. If they did a good job, you're probably just fine. With the bushings like that, you probably don't want to spin it faster than about 2K RPM, if that high. Which limits your cuts. Sharp HSS tooling will work much better with this thing than any carbides. (The RPM's are too low to let carbide shine, and HSS can get sharper than carbide. So less cutting force, and a better cut at the low RPMs you're limited to.)
Certainly at $100, there's no way you lose money with this thing.

The first site you want to look at is Tony's UK lathe site.
www.lathes.co.uk
Then click on the link for the machinery archive. Look also at Ames, Waltham Watch Tool, Hardinge. They and others all made small bench lathes in this class. If you know what you're doing, (and have the collets) you can do amazing things with them.

They're good machines to learn on: hard to hurt, and without enough power to tear your arm off if you screw up, the way the big boys can. They won't thread (without gear you don't have), but they're great for decorative work, and things with angles. Doing a shaft that's straight and parallel over any length can be a challenge, but *meeting* that challenge will show you how to make a larger lathe sing.

Just a couple of words of advice:
A) Safety glasses. First, last, always. I nearly lost an eye to an exploding toolbit---->when the lathe was turned OFF. All I was doing was making notes. If I hadn't kept my glasses on, I'd have lot it for sure.
B) Short sleeves. For now, short sleeves. Just because it won't tear your arm off if you get sucked in doesn't mean it won't hurt you.

Do some searches on here for "bench lathe", and you'll find some useful threads.

Best of luck
Brian

That is an amazing machine.

Somebody took the original AWT headstock off the machine, and fabricated a brand new one, FROM SCRATCH.

Alberic said:

Greetings,

Welcome to the party, deposit your wallet with the guy behind the counter.

The AWT lathe is one of a class of what were-for the time-high precision lathes. Your headstock isn't original, which is why you can't find one that looks like it. Somebody built that headstock when they changed out the cone pulley. The original pulley used flat belts, you've got "V"s. Looks like they kept the original spindle, and probably the bronze bushings, and fabbed up a new headstock for the rest. If they did a good job, you're probably just fine. With the bushings like that, you probably don't want to spin it faster than about 2K RPM, if that high. Which limits your cuts. Sharp HSS tooling will work much better with this thing than any carbides. (The RPM's are too low to let carbide shine, and HSS can get sharper than carbide. So less cutting force, and a better cut at the low RPMs you're limited to.)
Certainly at $100, there's no way you lose money with this thing.

The first site you want to look at is Tony's UK lathe site.
www.lathes.co.uk
Then click on the link for the machinery archive. Look also at Ames, Waltham Watch Tool, Hardinge. They and others all made small bench lathes in this class. If you know what you're doing, (and have the collets) you can do amazing things with them.

They're good machines to learn on: hard to hurt, and without enough power to tear your arm off if you screw up, the way the big boys can. They won't thread (without gear you don't have), but they're great for decorative work, and things with angles. Doing a shaft that's straight and parallel over any length can be a challenge, but *meeting* that challenge will show you how to make a larger lathe sing.

Just a couple of words of advice:
A) Safety glasses. First, last, always. I nearly lost an eye to an exploding toolbit---->when the lathe was turned OFF. All I was doing was making notes. If I hadn't kept my glasses on, I'd have lot it for sure.
B) Short sleeves. For now, short sleeves. Just because it won't tear your arm off if you get sucked in doesn't mean it won't hurt you.

Do some searches on here for "bench lathe", and you'll find some useful threads.

Best of luck

Brian

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Thank you! I'll definitely chk out those resources you pointed me towards and I'll be investing in some safety glasses (which I should've done a lifetime ago) in the immediate future. I'm glad I didn't lose out in terms of money and like I said at a $100 bucks I was willing to take that risk anyway, I mean it's a metal lathe for God's sake!?... Right? Lol! Also, could you plz explain what you meant when you said, "it won't thread"? I'm completely new to this so I've really gotta get up to speed on all the terminology. And one last thing, the HSS cutters, will that limit what I'm able to cut on the whole or can they cut all the same materials carbides can just a a slower rate? Thanks again for all your input I really appreciate it. Oh!.. And btw the bed is 32.25in end to end; I just ran out and measured it

jim rozen said:

That is an amazing machine.

Somebody took the original AWT headstock off the machine, and fabricated a brand new one, FROM SCRATCH.

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That's what I was thinking... now I'm just hoping he/she did a good job at it? Lol!

Greetings,

What I meant about threading is just that it won't cut a screw thread. For that, you need to rig up some way to synchronize the rotation of the spindle with the sideways traverse of the cutter bit. Without some seriously complicated extra bits, this style of machine can't do that. (The bits existed, but were never common, and are now pretty much unicorn rare.) And you would have needed the mount points on the original headstock. Gone now.

The HSS cutters will limit you to cutting the sorts of thing this machine is properly used for anyway. No, you're not going to chomp through 304 stainless bar with it, but it was never intended for that. It'll be slow, and fussy, and the depth-of-cuts will seem insanely light compared modern machine. But that's a perfect place to learn. If you try to jam a cutter in the way a modern machine does, you'll break something on this one for sure. It's always easier to learn (later) to go faster, than it is to figure out how much to slow down.

Best of luck,
Brian

Okay that makes sense! Yea I was wondering about that when I realized this machine had no "power feed" (I think that's what it's called?)? Everything aside from the belt driven part is turned by hand so there's no set-it-and-forget-it going on here lol! I was going to add some pics but right now everything is still boxed up. Hopefully late tonight or tomorrow I'll get everything laid out and I'll get some half decent pics up of all the parts that came with it and hopefully I can get some more insight into what it all is/does? Again thx for your help. And btw, Hardinge, ooooooohhhhh now THAT's a lathe! Lol! The one on the lathes.uk website you suggested looked INCREDIBLE! Super cool stuff... I've got a LOT of reading to do tonight. Thx!

As promised here's some more pics and I think what I'll do is UL more as I get things laid out, cleaned up, and put together. It appears that at some point in it's lifetime there was a badge or plate on the end of the bed which has since been removed so any hopes I had of making a positive ID on this lathe are quickly dwindling. I am curious however, if it is possible to swap out the head stock for another Waltham lathe from the same time period and if so how I'd go about figuring out which one would fit/line-up with the tail stock?

American Watch Tool Co. made a selling point of interchangeable parts with regard to the scraping of the bed, headstock and tailstock. So yes, another AWT headstock of the same center height should line up and fit your bed and tailstock if they have not been modified. The new headstock does raise the possibility that the bed and tailstock could have been modified at the same time.

I suspect the headstock spindle could be original, but it needs to be examined to be sure. The threaded end for mounting a chuck may prove it is not original.

The tapped hole and dowel pin hole in the left end of the bed were for mounting a screw cutting attachment. There should also be a stub on the end of the longitudinal feed screw for attaching the drive shaft. A drive gear would slide on the left end of the headstock spindle, so there should be a keyway there. I have never seen an AWT screw cutting attachment, and one would be worth more than your lathe if it did turn up.

I do have some Hardinge screw cutting attachments, which are very similar to what AWT would have provided. Tony has some pictures that show AWT and their successors' lathes with the attachment. http://www.lathes.co.uk/derbyshire/

A little info here: American Watch Tool Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org

Larry

Neat machine with the home made headstock. Probably not the best machine for a starter lathe, but it will do, and at a nice price. Tags on the end of the bed were probably shop ID tags for inventory purposes, or maybe the machine tool dealer who marketed it.

Have to LOL at using a negative rake carbide insert tool on a machine of this size.

I have always walked away from the two or three AWT bench lathes I saw for sale. There is a nice one at Greenfield Village that Thomas Edison bought new for his Florida lab. It is seen through a window, so I don't know how it is marked, numbered or tagged. It has the screw cutting attachment. See picture below.

But the many AWT watch lathes I own or used to own have the serial number stamped only on the headstock. So there is no telling what that number was once the headstock is lost. Not that the number would be much use to know.

Larry

L Vanice said:

American Watch Tool Co. made a selling point of interchangeable parts with regard to the scraping of the bed, headstock and tailstock. So yes, another AWT headstock of the same center height should line up and fit your bed and tailstock if they have not been modified. The new headstock does raise the possibility that the bed and tailstock could have been modified at the same time.

I suspect the headstock spindle could be original, but it needs to be examined to be sure. The threaded end for mounting a chuck may prove it is not original.

The tapped hole and dowel pin hole in the left end of the bed were for mounting a screw cutting attachment. There should also be a stub on the end of the longitudinal feed screw for attaching the drive shaft. A drive gear would slide on the left end of the headstock spindle, so there should be a keyway there. I have never seen an AWT screw cutting attachment, and one would be worth more than your lathe if it did turn up.

I do have some Hardinge screw cutting attachments, which are very similar to what AWT would have provided. Tony has some pictures that show AWT and their successors' lathes with the attachment. http://www.lathes.co.uk/derbyshire/

A little info here: American Watch Tool Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org

Larry

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Larry, Thank you... I'm really enjoying learning about these! And I've read through that link on Tony's site and all's I can say is: "WOW!". I was told that the screw cutting attachment is quite rare so no hopes of finding one, but it would be really cool I'm currently in the process of building a solid bench that'll be her new home and then I'll get to cleaning her up and refurbing her as best as I can. I would be absolutely ecstatic if I could find an original headstock, or even one similar that could be used, for no other reason than I think it'd be more aesthetically pleasing..? I can't wait to get it up and running! Thank you again for your help and feedback

Gewehr 98 said:

Neat machine with the home made headstock. Probably not the best machine for a starter lathe, but it will do, and at a nice price. Tags on the end of the bed were probably shop ID tags for inventory purposes, or maybe the machine tool dealer who marketed it.

Have to LOL at using a negative rake carbide insert tool on a machine of this size.

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Thank you! It is pretty wild that someone actually MADE a replacement head stock from scratch like that!? As soon as I'd seen it I knew it wasn't original. But the gentlemen I purchased it from was very adamant that, it in fact was original; because that's how he'd bought it quite some time ago. Of course rather than debate that with him I opted to go along with it. I figured if it had worked for him for this long, whomever did it, must've done it right? lol! Well, at least I hoped they did? Now for the tags; that makes sense... I've been doing a lot of reading up on these older machines, and now with your feedback, that seems to be the consensus; Shop ID/Inventory. And lastly the "negative rake carbide insert tool" plz forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I've got no idea what that is, nor why it should/shouldn't be used on this machine?... So I'll have to do my due diligence and get back to you on that one lol! Thank you again for your reply

Oh wow! That's AWESOME Larry! Just from the looks of the bed I'd have to say it's very similar to the one I've acquired if not the same model? But without the original headstock I'm not sure we'll ever truly know? Now if we did have the serial number would that help us to identify the model of this lathe? And I'm just curious; why did you "walked away" from the AWT's? Is it the company and/or their product, or was it the machine itself being in a bad condition etc..? If you don't mind me asking of course..?

Well I finally had an opportunity to build a bench for this thing and clean up the ways a bit so I figured I'd post how she sits now.
Haven't decided yet if I'm gonna go nuts and ultra-clean it and repaint it or if I'm going to leave it like this (lightly cleaned with mineral spirits and a brass brush)and run it as is? There's a little play in the handle on the tail stock that's causing me a bit of concern but I was hoping one of you might be able to tell me if this is normal?...I'll take a pic tomorrow of the specific location. Anyway, here's how she looks now:

Here's the section of the tail stock with all the play in it... not much but enough that you can see it in pics. Can anyone tell me if this is okay?

Also, I took several pics of the tool mount after getting it cleaned up as best I could with using any harsh abrasives or sandpapers. All the numbers match and it was pretty cool to find a AMT Co. insignia and Patent Date stamped on it under all the grime! And lastly what do you guys typically use to lubricate these worm gears? Thanks in advance!

The eight dots near the tool holder T-slot on the slide rest show that the T-slot was broken and repaired. If the tool post is left attached to the slide rest and the slide rest is dropped while it is off the lathe, the T-slot usually gets destroyed. A serious wreck on an engine lathe can do the same damage. I have seen a lot of those repair jobs on various make cast iron T-slots.

My preferred repair is to make a new top slide from scratch. In 1960, Hardinge redesigned their DV59 slide rest with a steel top slide that will not break.

Larry

L Vanice said:

The eight dots near the tool holder T-slot on the slide rest show that the T-slot was broken and repaired. If the tool post is left attached to the slide rest and the slide rest is dropped while it is off the lathe, the T-slot usually gets destroyed. A serious wreck on an engine lathe can do the same damage. I have seen a lot of those repair jobs on various make cast iron T-slots.

My preferred repair is to make a new top slide from scratch. In 1960, Hardinge redesigned their DV59 slide rest with a steel top slide that will not break.

Larry

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You sir are a wellspring of vast lathe knowledge! Thank you! I truly appreciate you sharing some of that with me. So would you say that it's safe to assume this old lathe has been through the ringer quite a bit in it's lifetime? And how much do these repairs devalue such an item? I mean between the broken tool holder and the homemade head stock, when the time does come to part with this do you think I'll at least be able to recoup my initial investment? Don't get me wrong the money I spent on it will be well worth the knowledge and experience gained from it but when/if it's time to move on to something more up-to-date I'd at least like to get back what was spent, if possible of course...?

Depends on what you enjoy doing. The present project appears to be in good shape and is a good start on learning how to make do with what you have. If you're hoping to leapfrog over this lathe and make your way up to some ideal lathe ... in my opinion, you are better off sticking with what you now have.

Recently I knowingly bought a damaged watchmakers lathe cross slide, which was missing a gib on the bottom slide, had a broken feed screw and lost handle on the middle slide, and no top slide at all. After a couple of months of spare-time machining & fitting work, the cross slide is now fully functional. I made all the repair parts from scratch, including two feed screws, two gibs, two feed handles, the top slide body and its two Tee slots. Turns out that the damage was actually quite limited, and that it was probably due to mis-handling rather than from over-use, so I have ended up with a useful tool made from a useless one, without spending any outside money for the repairs. The machining was done with a much-used South Bend lathe, a brought-back-from-the-dead South Bend shaper, a drill press, vise, files and elbow grease.a
I have two B.C. Ames lathes bought cheep, but undamaged. Separately, at a Cabin Fever auction, I got two cross slides for them. One needs work, what with sloppy fits and motions that will probably require new parts, again, to be made from scratch.

Now - to get to the point: Another project has been to make a number of threading attachments for a group of watchmakers lathe that I've collected over the years. I made drawings of the parts and gear blanks that will be needed, and I've had some of those parts laser cut from steel plate. They've come out pretty good, with only some file work needed to get them ready to be fully machined. The edges of the cuts are presently rather too hard for machining, but I have tried tempering them by draw filing the larger surfaces and then heating them in the open air with a propane torch to develop the blue-black color indicative of around 1000 degrees F, adequate to draw the temper of the hardened mild steel edges. Much more to be done. But I've also got the ambition to make screwcutting attachments for the two Ames lathes to increase their value & marketability. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to have more than two sets of the laser cut basic pieces (brackets, arms, gear blanks) made, once I've made the basic drawings. What I've done for the watchmakers lathes are to make the basic parts for about eight screwcutting attachments at a cost of $360, which works out to fifty bucks per set, which cuts out a whole lot of sawing of those parts from raw material.

The nice part of the drawings/laser cutting process is that there isn't any patternmaking involved, and no huge minimum order to get the attention of any foundry, so I can re-order more sets of the basic parts essentially at any time that someone shows an interest. The AWT and B.C. Ames lathes are bigger and will require bigger brackets & gears, but the overall designs are the same, so the drawings will just be for the bigger parts. Maybe I can just enlarge the drawings with my LibreCAD drawing software !

George Langford
georgesbasement