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AMMCO or Atlas Shaper?

VTX-

Plastic
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Location
M.A.
I have had a 7" ammco shaper for a few years now and just found a 7" Atlas shaper both have very little wear and are in good shape for the age. I only need one so I am looking for opinions on what is the better machine. The paint on the Atlas is Original and the ammco has had green slapped on at some point, but I am more interested in the more capable and desirable of the two. From my limited use of the ammco It looks like the Atlas is a step up being a bit bigger and appears to be made a bit better. any opinions???
 
Going from my customers impressions, it seems that the Ammco is a better machine. One problem I see with the Atlas, is the die cast parts. Atlas machines seem to sell better, so what do I know?

It's going to be the proverbial Ford/Chevrolet debate on this one, I bet!

Craig Donges
 
I have never used an Atlas, but I have looked at them, and from what I have seen I think the Ammcos are a better-built machine. I also think Craig is right that the Atlas will sell for more money.
Andy
 
Hey Ya'll,
I've heard tell that the ammco's have a phenolic bull gear that can be hard to replace but then what do I know ? I do however like the t-slot table of the atlas... If it where me I go with which ever one had a vise.. having a shaper with out a good shaper vice is a pain in the set up department..
Stay safe
Calvin
 
Don't mean to steal your thread, but for anyone that has used them, how do the Atlas and Ammco shapers compare to a South Bend or Logan shaper? The Logan has variable speed and the SB has pressure feed lubrication but other than that.....??
 
Hello, Waterlogged:

Greetings. If I may, SOME South Bend shapers have pressure lube of the ram and other bits. Early S-Bs don't have automatic lube.

One way to determine if the shaper has auto lube is to look at the left side of the shaper's body. If you can see a small hole-and-cover to the lower left of the primary Cover Plate, that is the "Oil Pressure Regulating Valve Cover (OPRVC)," hence the shaper has auto lube.

It’s #19 (upper illustration) on page 4 of the US Army's manual on S-B shapers (TM 9-3418-200-14 & P), available free at several places on the Web. The Red arrow on the attached thumbnail is pointing to the OPRVC.

Initial startup always requires validating that the automatic lube system is working. Swarf, dead cows, poisoned pigeons, and other nasty stuff can fowl up the oil pump.

Stan Db
 

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Waterlogged;

Slight correction...not all SB shapers are pressure lube.

I have had more than one craftsman tell me Logan made a mighty fine shaper. Some even say the best, other than the chain drive.

Craig Donges
 
accessdbguy:

That explains the missing cows....

I should probably mention that I currently have a South Bend (pressure lube) shaper and a Boxford shaper and previously owned a Logan. I know that Atlas shapers are popular and wondered if there was any justification in the high prices they command. The only thing that appears to be different about them is that they have Timken bearings for the main shaft where I think most other shapers use bushings. The die cast parts are definitely a negative although I understand that they are pretty well built overall. The Aamco's are cute, compact and about 2/3 the weight of many other shapers. I've seen them both in person but haven't run either one.

My opinion of the SB and Boxford is that the SB pressure lube system is a selling point and I haven't heard of worn out SB shapers as long as the pumps work and they aren't left out in the rain or run over by a car/truck. The Boxford is a little beefier than the SB, and a little more modern or industrial looking (good or bad?). Mine has a universal table and power feed for both horizontal and vertical travel which can come in handy at times. I don't know of any other small (7-8") shapers in the US with these features.

The Logan 7" was nice as well. Similar to the Boxford and SB. The variable speed drive looked like it might wear over time but mine worked fine. The vise on the Logan was definitely the beefiest.
 
Finegrain:

I'm a recovering tool addict and my therapist suggested that I work my way down slowly versus going cold turkey so I sold an extra South Bend shaper last weekend (you probably saw it on CL). I'm down to two but I'm not sure if I can get down to one without some kind of relapse. Please don't report me. I'm trying to share.
 
"You have to move to BC if you want multiples", darn right! It actually is a requirement but like speeding some just choose to break the law ;). Dave
 
The Ammco shaper uses a bull gear with helical teeth, made from "bakelite" (or fabric reinforced phenolic to use the correct term). The pinion is steel. Over time, the phenolic bull gears do wear out.

I have a buddy who bought an Ammco shaper some years ago at an estate sale. It was a shop in a barn in an isolated spot. The power was turned off in the barn, so my friend could not see the shape run under power. He asked the sellers if he could take off the belt guard and pull the drive over by hand, or open the inspection cover to check the gears and slide mechanism. The sellers were in a hurry and said buy it as it sits, no taking apart or opening anything. Since the shaper looked quite good outwardly, scraped flaking all nice and crisp, and no evidence of wear or hard use, my buddy took a chance. I believe he paid 600 bucks for the shaper. He got it home and got a horrible surprise- the bull gear was missing completely.

Apparently, the bull gear is machined from phenolic and mounts onto a steel hub. The hub, shaft and slider mechanism are all in place. Our belief is the phenolic bull gear wore out, and the deceased previous owner likely sidelined the shaper until he could get another bull gear made.

Since the bull gear has helical teeth, this is not a job done in most home machine shops. So, ten or more years has elapsed and that shaper sits in my buddy's shop. We have the pinion and took all the gear data to reverse engineer a bull gear. Getting the teeth cut for a reasonable price in proportion to what he has tied up in the rest of the machine may be what is holding him from making up a new bull gear.

We found out that the bull gear on an Ammco shaper was the weak link, likely designed as a sacrificial part. The rest of the shaper is well built, using machined steel parts or cast iron where Atlas would likely have used "Zamak" (die cast zinc).

Joe Michaels
 
"You have to move to BC if you want multiples"
Yep this be true, but you've got to remember it's a big place up here so the shapers run a little bigger too, my little one strokes 12".
Don
 
Joe,

I recall reading about someone who had made a few replacement bull gears for the AMMCO, and was selling them. This was about 1-2 years ago. It was probably on the yahoo metal shapers group. If you want, I'll try to track this down.

Dave

The Ammco shaper uses a bull gear with helical teeth, made from "bakelite" (or fabric reinforced phenolic to use the correct term). The pinion is steel. Over time, the phenolic bull gears do wear out.

I have a buddy who bought an Ammco shaper some years ago at an estate sale. It was a shop in a barn in an isolated spot. The power was turned off in the barn, so my friend could not see the shape run under power. He asked the sellers if he could take off the belt guard and pull the drive over by hand, or open the inspection cover to check the gears and slide mechanism. The sellers were in a hurry and said buy it as it sits, no taking apart or opening anything. Since the shaper looked quite good outwardly, scraped flaking all nice and crisp, and no evidence of wear or hard use, my buddy took a chance. I believe he paid 600 bucks for the shaper. He got it home and got a horrible surprise- the bull gear was missing completely.

Apparently, the bull gear is machined from phenolic and mounts onto a steel hub. The hub, shaft and slider mechanism are all in place. Our belief is the phenolic bull gear wore out, and the deceased previous owner likely sidelined the shaper until he could get another bull gear made.

Since the bull gear has helical teeth, this is not a job done in most home machine shops. So, ten or more years has elapsed and that shaper sits in my buddy's shop. We have the pinion and took all the gear data to reverse engineer a bull gear. Getting the teeth cut for a reasonable price in proportion to what he has tied up in the rest of the machine may be what is holding him from making up a new bull gear.

We found out that the bull gear on an Ammco shaper was the weak link, likely designed as a sacrificial part. The rest of the shaper is well built, using machined steel parts or cast iron where Atlas would likely have used "Zamak" (die cast zinc).

Joe Michaels
 
Thanks for all the replys, I did end up buying the atlas too good of a deal ($150.00) Both of the shapers have vices, the ammco is missing the access door on the right side and it appears as the bull gear is of the plastic resin kind, I would be interested in a parts sorce for the gear and the bull gear door. The atlas is in mint shape once the oil residue was wiped off, it came out of a jewlery factory and had not been used in manny years the vice dose not appear to be the factory it is marked "Production" on top I now see all the cast parts everyone is talking about, I do like the ammco and will most likly hold on to both for a bit at least untill I get a chance to use both. the ammco was a craigslist pick up for $100.00 so i dont have a whole lot in the two of them. any one have a way to date either machine by the serial number??
 
Dave:

Thanks for the post. If you could find the name/contact data of the source for replacement Ammco phenolic bull gears, I would really be appreciative.

VTX:
The name "production" stamped on the vise may well be a dealer's brand name. Production Tool was a supply house in the Detroit, MI area. They had (or may still have) a fairly hefty catalog of cutting tools, work holding devices and related machine shop supplies. They may well have had a line of tooling or work holding devices made by jobbers (overseas being likely) and stamped with their name.

As for the door to the bull gear access on the Ammco Shaper. I would not hold my breath for anyone making a reproduction or replacement part. My reasons for this opinion are that the door is not a part likely to break or wear out. If you need a door, make one. Almost anything will work for a door, so you could make it out of aluminum plate, or even clear lexan or similar and watch the gears and mechanism working. Not sure of the design of the door- the Ammco shaper I posted about is at my buddy;s shop. However, I think you may be able to make a door out of aluminum or lexan using a jig saw or band saw. If a stepped inset to seat the door is needed, it could simply be screwed to the door panel. You'd have to fabricate some kind of latch or dogs to pull the door home against the mainframe of the shaper. I may be off base, but I think making a replacement door should not be too hard a job. RTV gasket eliminator might be handy to seal and even anchor the door to the mainframe of the shaper. If you are not a purist, a clear door might be kind of cool. The old Skinner Unaflow vertcial steam engines had round "portlights" on each crankcase handhole cover. There were oil/vaportight lamps in the crankcase, so you could look in and verify lube oil flow to the bearings or just watch things go round. Might be a nice feature on your shaper.
 
AMMCO bull gear for sale?

Joe,

I found the reference to the AMMCO bull gears for sale, but it may be too late now - I can't find any trace of the ebay listing that's referred to.

The posting was on the yahoo Metal_Shapers group. Here's a link:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Metal_Shapers/messages/15655?threaded=1&m=e&var=1&tidx=1

And in case the link doesn't work, here's the important text:

#15655 From: "Don Marsh" <radio1@...>
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:41 am
Subject: eBay seller ... selling new AMMCO Bull Gear

My eBay serach engine alerted me about this sale of newly made AMMCO bull gears. His starting bid is $130.00!!


shaper new bull gear 7" Ammco/ Rockwell-Delta Item number: 10182782333
 
I just got a Delta 7" and the bull gear has 4 teeth that are missing half of them. Still worked by hand so I didn't notice till I got it to the shop. Any luck on a source or exact dimensions so one could be made?
It was missing the pawl assembly which I made already and everything behind it relating to the drive. I am going to put on a 3ph motor and VFD to make that simple and avoid the whole counter shaft assembly.
 








 
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