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02-12-2009, 10:02 PM #1
Another Barnes 4 1/2 lathe for sale in the Oregon area.
Here is the second barnes 4 1/2 lathe for sale in the Oregon area. It is hard to believe that they are going for $600 and above. Am I missing something, are they that rare?
02-12-2009, 11:21 PM #2
Truth is they're NOT going for $600 and above. The $500 NH Barnes 4-1/2 has been upwards of eight months on and off Craigslist and Ebay. And Barnes 4-1/2 generally are not that rare. An inquiry to buy one from someone on this board will probably bring you at least two sellers for less than $1K - and that for a COMPLETE Barnes ready to pedal. The woodworking lathes like a No. 3 - in original paint (which is where the charm is for those) - seem a lot rarer.
But of course, with the exception of Doug Cunningham, they're not making new Barnes Lathes...
A similar effect was seen with the introduction of the reproduction Barnes treadle jigsaw. Someone came out with a copy done in aluminum (except for the seat) and priced over $1K. Suddenly everyone with an original Barnes treadle jigsaw woke up to what they have and prices jumped accordingly. But they also levelled out a bit after everyone realized there were still jigsaws out there under the eaves and in the basements. All waiting to come out of hiding. The aluminum jigsaw is now no longer being made (I assume they can't compete.)
Certainly what's driving a perceived increase in price is the fact that it's pretty pricey to buy a lathe as "parts" from Doug and make it all happen that way. Not to critque Doug. I'm sure he does what he can to price at his cost. Kind of like buying a car at the parts counter. The cost of a car bought in this manner would bankrupt even the Federal Government! (and that's saying a LOT these days!) And the relatively high price of parts is affecting the price of lathes extant, both positively AND in the case of a lathe missing a lot of parts, negatively.
But like those that went before it, this lathe competes with all the "grampy's" lathes that are still being found in chicken coops and barns over the country. The mid-west is still a relatively untapped resource for these things.
I wouldn't get too worked up over this in any way shape or form. If you own one and you see prices rising, I guess that's a good thing. If you don't own, you can take heart in the fact that higher prices will bring more out of the woodwork - and prices will in time level due to free enterprise being what it is.
Joe in NH
Last edited by Joe in NH; 02-13-2009 at 09:28 AM.
02-12-2009, 11:27 PM #3
Do those lathes ever show up with there treadle mechanism intact?
02-12-2009, 11:27 PM #4
I agree with you. I do not have room for another one. I just figure someone would like a shot at one. I paid $200 and traded the line shaft for some gears so $600 is out of my cheap range.
It is so bad when every barn I went by in Georgia I was hoping there would be a lathe or mill sitting there.
02-13-2009, 09:39 AM #5
[Do those lathes ever show up with there treadle mechanism intact?]
I would say about half the time. The problem is that to restore the pedal mechanism using Doug Cunningham's parts, you're talking $750 plus.
You can probably get yourself into a Barnes for less than a grand, unless you really luck out and stumble upon "grampy's" machine where he left it in the milk building or chicken coop.
Doug told me a while ago that he thought the 4-1/2s are more widely sought after by collectors, thus prices for these tend to be higher. The smaller machine is more 'cute' and more likely to be put into the living room or entryway as a static display. However, for every No. 5, I've probably seen two 4-1/2s. I suspect there are more 4-1/2s extant simply because the original farmers who bought these things tended to be "cheap" and there was less market demand for the larger and more expensive No. 5. And this comparison can be made further for the even less frequently seen No. 5-1/2 and larger sizes. If you have a No. 13 with the treadle, you probably have something quite notable.
Joe in NH
02-14-2009, 05:46 PM #6
In my experience, finding any complete treadle lathe, scroll saw, table saw, etc., is fairly hard and getting more so every day.
Barnes was the largest mfg of foot powered machinery and the 4 1/2 was their smallest true screw cutting metal lathe. It went for about $65 with tooling (no chuck) when it was introduced in 1900. It has a 9 in swing and could be obtained in both treadle and velocipede versions. Barnes said it could reach a high enough speed to be good for turing wood and actually offered a specail tool rest for wood turing. It was also offered in a bench top version as well as standard floor mounted version that could be driven via a line shaft. Transporting it was not that big of a problem especailly when the flywheel is removed. It is the lathe that shows up the most. Think all of this lead to its popularity.
The lathe without the foot powered parts is not of much use unless you need a part like a leg or bed especially if there are no change gears. Reproduction parts are expensive especially when you consider the machining cost, transportation and the trouble you have to go to get them cast. (been there and done that) And of course, the parts that are typically missing are the change gears and the foot powered parts. From my experience, I see several or more that are missing the foot powered parts for every one I see complete and I don't see many of them at all.
Yes, you may stumble on one that has been in somebody's basement or garage but the odds of it being complete and not broken are fairly slim at least in my experience.
If you are looking for one that is complete, no cracks or welds, has the change gears, steady rest, no missing gear teeth, you are probably looking at about $1500 as Barnes seems to be the most sought after foot powered metal lathe.
I have plans for a website dedicated entirely to footpowered machinery as soon as my son gets the basic software loaded. Plan to show a number of foot powered metal lathes as well as a wide selection of scroll saws, etc. Will post the address when it has something other than a welcome page available.
I just love foot powered machinery..
PS.. Always looking for an old, open frame bandsaw where the lower wheel is much heavier than the top wheel or simply a true foot powered bandsaw. Parks made them for Sears as well as other companies like Crescent.
PPS.. I have seen one of the #13's that was true treadle (not velocipede) that had the riser blocks that took it to a 17 in swing as I remember. She was a sweet running machine but very, very heavy. Think the flywheel alone was heavier than the entire 4 1/2. Took two people to put it off an on.
02-15-2009, 01:33 PM #7
Price has dropped
I just checked the listing and the price dropped from $650 to $495.
I wonder if it will drop to $300. If it does then I will try for it.
02-17-2009, 03:00 PM #8
Your wait may be over
Another 4-1/2 Barnes has appeared in Oregon
Barnes 4 1/2 screw machine
It has the compound option.
The Craig list one is newer as it has the guard over the bull gear.
02-17-2009, 04:38 PM #9
02-17-2009, 06:13 PM #10
If into Barnes ....
If into Barnes or wanting to get Barnes strain of Old Iron Disease either is a good start. It is seldom, as several have mentioned, to find a complete Barnes. You start collecting parts and hopefully you end up with enough for a complete machine, or have to purchase a few reproduction parts.
The change gears a good start if all 13 are there. Steady rest is another plus.
As for Barnes #4-1/2 or #5 lathes. The spindle threads maybe the same (some have 7/8"-10 and others 1"-10 depending on years of manufacture) but that is about it on parts interchangeability. The #4-1/2 utilizes morse tapers and the #5 has Jarno. The beds are different widths. So if you want a complete machine might want to focus on one model unless willing to hunt and trade parts with other restorers.
The #4-1/2 is a smaller swing and usually shorter lathe than the #5. Both #4-1/2 and #5 could be purchased with extended beds.
I would like to have both in my parts inventory at the $200 and $275 prices, however when you add $250-300 each freight it is a deal killer for me.
02-18-2009, 01:32 AM #11
Thanks for pointing me over to "Epay". Free contract search labor.
I will probably bid on the ebay one if it stays at $200. It has a rusted bed but it would be nice to have the top of the compound slide. I am unusure but this one looks like the first one I saw for $450.
I just finished mounting a 5C indexer with a 5/16" toolbit on my cross slide and it turns wood so slick and smooth.
Thanks again for looking for me. I will keep my eyes out for the neat looking old iron.
02-18-2009, 01:39 AM #12
What Barnes is this
I was looking at the one on "Epay" and this came up.
What number would this one be?
02-18-2009, 01:17 PM #13
It is likely a #13 but could be a #6 as both models had power cross feed. Only the later #6's had the power cross feed. The #6 was built with several carriage designs.
This Oregon lathe was not foot powered because of the leg design. No place to mount flywheel.
Wonder if Oregon is upgrading all their machines The #6 was discontinued about 1900 as the #13 replaced it in 1901.
Last edited by timekiller; 02-18-2009 at 01:19 PM. Reason: more detail
02-18-2009, 02:30 PM #14
Oregon is a little behind the times.
I would have to live in the garage if I bought that one. I bought my five and then asked for forgiveness.
02-19-2009, 11:40 PM #15
I have a major addiction.
Well I bid on the lathe even though there is no room in the garage.
Is there a support group for this barnes lathe addiction.
02-19-2009, 11:43 PM #16
Barnes lathe in Florida
Here is a 4 1/2 in florida if anyone is interested.
02-20-2009, 09:03 AM #17Here is a 4 1/2 in florida if anyone is interested.
As for a Barnes lathe addiction, you help that by sending anything that won't fit easily into your garage to either Ray (timekiller) or Ed Hobbs. Or if it's for a #13, to me!
02-20-2009, 01:06 PM #18
02-20-2009, 08:23 PM #19
Hi my name is
Hi, my name is Ivan and I am an addict.
I love it the support here. Are there going to be cookies and coffee latter?
02-21-2009, 10:16 AM #20