Antiquity?

D. What are the determining factors of machine antiquity? Bobby

primarily the age of the machine.....

cheers

carla

I think one indicator is to have the oldest machinist you can find take a look at it, and if he spits out his tobacc-ie, shakes his head and sez "son, she looks like she came over on the Mayflower" it's a pretty good indicator of antiquity

D and Carla, the reason I asked is I would think an antique car would need to be original. I don't think a 1937 Cord should have a 1990's corvette engine. I have one old Keller power hacksaw, not original but cuts great, a Clausing lathe from 1961 with a 3phase to 1phase motor change out, new chuck, etc. This lathe is old, but not what I think could be called antique, (similar to me,I hope the lathe and I have a few more years). I guess what I'm trying to say is we all have some old equipment, not necessarily antique like the little red scroll saw pictures you posted earlier. That was a beauty! All this post is for is to help me differentiate old from antique for me. Thanks for listening to a semi-antique. Bobby

Unlike cars and furniture, I assume there is no formal definition of what makes an old machine tool an "antique" ...mainly because very few people care. There is no commerce to speak of in the "antique machine tool" market, so no need to have formal definitions.

One time while viewing the TV show "Antiques Roadshow" and seeing the local personage have their Cupie doll, lamp or whatever appraised at thousands of dollars* I joked to my wife that I had a vision of myself rolling in the 36 inch Jones Superior scrollsaw (i.e. the red one you referred to) and explaining how it almost certainly is the only example in the world of a Jones Superior scrollsaw with the Grecian womans head at the crest and has all the original parts (well ok, the leather belting was new, but I still had the original !). Then the appraisor would grimace and say "I'm sorry sir, but there is no market for this sort of piece, please go away and don't bother us...NEXT !"


*course the tidbit they never mention about these figures, is that they are what it might "bring at auction" are tainted by the fact that YOU could never sell it for that...and antique auction commission are what...50 percent ?

[This message has been edited by D. Thomas (edited 03-15-2001).]

So, I guess my saw with no hydraulic lift on the backstroke, and no control over the feed rate, and a new/used motor is qualified? I looked into repairing this diamond in the rough and decided it would have to stay rough. Also, do you think that auction road show may have some planted items, along with the junkyard wars stuff? I do.

I'll jump in here on this one....my version of an antique machine is...."if it was originally driven with a flatbelt it's an antique", conversions to motors count, since the motor can be taken off. I have both machine shop and woodworking machines. My objective now is hoard as many flatbelt as I can find and figure out what to do with them later. I plan to restore most of what I have, if enuff machines find their way to my shop, I may look at trading. "too many interests...not enuff time"

I can sure get behind "too many interests, not enough time, Ben. With any luck, I'll soon be hanging lineshafting in my garage, and eventually be running a Steptoe hand mill, a Buffalo drill press, and a really ancient #2 Pratt and Whitney turret lathe off it. I'm going to cheat, though, by making my split pulleys from glue ups of luan plywood and hanging the shaft from ball bearing pillow blocks from my freindly John Deere dealer. (Just don't have time for an authentic amount of maintenance work.) I can see from your post re: your planer and shapers that you have a lot more room than I do so yours will be very cool when you are able to get to it.

[This message has been edited by ObsoleteTom (edited 04-04-2001).]

Tom,
Who said anything about having room!!! I have the shop filled and don't have my doors on yet, plus I still have stuff in storage. If I a 100,000 sf instead of 1,000 sf I'd still be out of room. I managed to salvage all the line shaft hangers, shafting and pulleys out of the pattern shop I got my woodworking machines from. Some of my pullys were in bad shape when I got the out of the ceiling, I keeep them anyway because the can be used as PATTERNS!!!! Thes were all laminated out of small pieces of what looks like maple, altho several look like oak. I can't put a line shaft in this building( or at least mounted to the ceiling) because of the way the building is construted, wish now I had never bought a steel self-supporting building. I may make a short line shaft suppotered from the floor on pillars, just so I can run a couple of machines from it, if I do this I'll probably use regular pillow blocks and a smaller shaft. I have to figure out which machines I can line up under and still have room to move. My ceiling height is a problem in the area where the line shaft will go, so what ever I hook up will have to have the drive pulley in line with the shaft because I wouldn't have a long enuff belt to make a 90. I think the G&E shaper and the horiz Cincinatti have side mounted drive pulleys on them. Maybe the shop will be built with a lineshaft in mind.

Ben,
Sounds like you were real lucky on the overhead drive hardware. I have the same problem with ceiling height but was able, after a lot of head scratching, to come up with an arrangement that should work okay and still leaves room for six motor drive machines ( the largest are a 13" South Bend lathe and an old #52 Acme automatic screw machine), a vertial tank air compressor, a small woodworking area, and just room to work on a car. All of this in a car and a half garage- I just can't do more tha one thing at a time. I'll let you know how it works out. Also, the idea of supporting the lineshaft on structure from the floor is valid. I've seen it done. That place used I beam but timber should work okay, too.

Ben,

But why take off the electric drive if it's an antique also?

I have a Flather 12" shaper with what I think may be a factory drive. 4 speed unidrive, or what looks like a unidrive box, no plate or name cast in that I have found, and a G.E. 1.25hp repulsion induction motor. They are mounted on some real nice brackets, cast, not fabricated. Don't know the age of this machine, I think WW1 vintage, it has 1/2-13 threaded bolts so it was made after 1917? I knew when they changed the standard once but I forgot. But anyhow I consider it an antique.

Also have a good sized, 27x131, New Haven Engine Lathe built I think, about 1880. Its well laid out, lead screw on front, no interlock on halfnut, but the handle when disengaged is down and gravity keeps it there, you just don't want to get stupid and engage it when feed is engaged. The threads on the tailstock screw are right handed, so the hand wheel turns backwards. It has some other strange features. Guess they were still learning how to build them then, it is serial #29, #30 was prabably different.

But back to line shafting, this machine also has an electric drive, real nice, with clutch and a 4 speed white truck transmision belted to an Allis-Chalmers 2hp open frame motor.

I guess they were installed maybe in the 40's because of the electric welding used in making of the brackets.

Is it still an antique with this drive?

I think that maybe it's still is an antique if it has a Model A Ford transmission on it.

Got a steptoe shaper with a model A trans. on it, take $100 for it and leave the single phase GE? or was it Westinghouse? motor on it.

I am glad that we do have people setting up machines with line shafting, have always wanted to see a shop in operation that way. Have only seen one machine operated by an overhead shaft and it was hooked to an electric motor. The old man running it flipped them belts arround with it running, scared me, but I was younger then, bout 14.

I later worked for this man, learned a lot from him, I think he's antique class now.

He don't chew bakker though.

Have fun everyone

Speaking of wanting to see a shop driven by line shafts, my old woodworking shop in Raleigh,NC called Lassiter Mill, which I rented, was equiped with line shafts (this was in the mid 1980's). Originally powered by water turbine mounted at the small dam/creek nextdoor, it was powered by a large electric motor. I only used it for one machine as I was in it for a living and already had seperate motors on all else, but it was interesting to turn the big motor on and watch all the turning pullys overhead. The building was torn down soon after I moved out

I knew an old codger in Seagroves, NC (pottery country) who owned an actual water powered grist mill on his farm and had a few woodworking machines on line shaft in the mill in addition to the grinding stone. Rather than water turbine, he had the classic water wheel and mill pond situation, and it was fascinating to watch him open the sluice gate and get the works 'a spinnin. He was in questionable health back then, so he's almost certainly long gone now but I keep meaning to check on his mill someday and see who the new owner might be.

If you want to see a line drive shop go to Greenfield Village in Detroit Mi. They have a complete shop running and if I remember right,they have a steam engine that is supose to run but I think they cheat because of the work involved in steam.They have it running and there is someone running machines and ansering questions.Then go to the adjacent Ford museum and drule over all the antique to modern machines.I love to look over everything but wife and kids cant appreciate them.If you can check it out.

Speaking of museums with machine tools and children who don't appreciate same, I was in London for a month back in 1974 and visited the British Museum a number of times while there. I remembered seeing numerous restored antique machine tools but being a college student,didn't know enough back then to fully appreciate what I had seen. So, on the next trip over there, in 1980 something, I specifically went out of my way and to a lot of trouble (including dragging the wife kicking and screaming ) to go there again and see the machines. Well, when we finally got there, to my great displeasure they had completely removed *all* antique machine tools ! Turns out they had done so just a few months earlier in order to give the space over to a childrens "science experience" center or some such "fun" museum thing. Pointing out to the director that machine tools are the mother of all other machines got nodding agreement, but no matter, they were under "pressure" to liven up the place !

Still, we did go to Ironbridge, near Birmingham, where the Industrial Revolution was born and that was very nice. The world's first production foundries were born in Ironbridge and the first cast iron bridge is there still and in excellent condition as I recall. They also have a small machine shop with line shaft in operation.

Are you sure it was the British Museun you saw the machines in? Last time I was in the UK was Sept. 1984 adn went to the Science Museum in South Kensington, which is near to the British Museum. The Science Museum still had, at that time, steam engines from Watts era, steam locomotives. On the second floor there were Whitworth's screw-cutting lathes among others. They also had a glasscased model of a machine shop with steam engine power, line shafting, lathes drilling machines etc which could be viewed in operation by pushing a button (air powered though not steam). I first saw these exhibits in 1946 or 1947 during the school holidays.
Now they also have all kinds of electronic diplays for communications etc. but the aircraft have been moved to another location which I believe was an RAF station about 40 miles west of London.

Maybe it was the Science Museum, can't remember. But the year was 1988 now that I think of it, so that would explain how you saw what I didn't !

Evening, Folks,
In regard to overhead drive shops, Ive been to Greenfield village several times and it's well worth the trip. The other shop I've seen belonged to and old friend of my father and included two lathes, the largest being a 1911 vintage Leblond, a shaper, vertical slotter, horizontal mill, boring mill,and drill presses. The owner swore by white truck transmissions and several of his machines used them for speed changes. The whole shop was run by a 1919 vintage gasoline engine which, if I recall correctly, he said his father bought from Sears Roebuck. The primary business done there was farm repair and when the owner died, everything but the engine went to a scrapper. I didn't get there quick enough.

Regarding the model A Ford transmission, I had a turret lathe set up that way once. Someone apparently bought these and marketed a motor drive kit that included them as mine was a very neatly done unit with a cast iron bracket, etc. Another supplier of these kits was Drive All Mfg. of Detroit, although they produced their own gearbox. Personally, I liked theirs much better than the model A setup. Last I knew they were in Harbor Beach, MI and still going strong.

Finally, for halfnut, I may be mistaken but think the American standard thread system took effect in 1908.

Best regards,
Tom

[This message has been edited by ObsoleteTom (edited 05-02-2001).]

Just a note here.. To make flat pulleys... Consider using NON TEMPERED masonite either glued or clamped together... Ever seen a 'paper' or a 'cardboard' pulley before? That is essentially what they are. You can even make them using segments.

About foreign museums, the Deutsches Museum in Munich had a lot of old machinery and engines etc.
They were running a Lenoir gas engine that they had, and the noise was unbelievable.

being in Germany, I bet they have not taken it out yet, but I saw it an awful long time ago, in the 1960's. Anything is possible.

I always figured an antique was something that used to work, but now is just for lookin at. Therefore, if the machine is still in use, it's not an antique. I have a 100 year old camera that film is no longer available for, so it's an antique, but my lathe is 50 years old and it still works like the day it was new, so it's not an antique, just old. If I could get film for the camera, I'd probably use it, and it wouldn't be an antique.IMHO, anyway.

[This message has been edited by bdarin (edited 10-31-2001).]