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Anyone estimate value for old p&w 6" horizontal shaper

richief

Plastic
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Moving need sell and I have no idea what to ask for old pratt whitney horiz shaper "6.0 any help is appreciated.IMG_0144.jpgIMG_0150.jpgIMG_0143.jpgIMG_0147.jpg
 
It looks to be in good shape but not completely original, (v-belt drive conversion.). Scrap is low right now, but I don't much take that into consideration on a piece like this, mainly establishes bottom end, minus difficulty in loading and hauling. I think $200-$400 would be fair. Location and ease of access and loading influences price. I love old iron so practical considerations would not be a very big factor. My 2 cents.
 
Your shaper is from the 1880's and yours makes the fourth that I know of. I just sold mine which was completely original for $1000. They are a much more desirable small shaper than a South Bend.
 
I have seen them anywhere from $300 up. Used machinery dealer in this area has a couple of 7" Atlas shapers for $995 which I think is over priced. I would say for a personal transaction something in the $300-500 would be appropriate, of course assuming no sever damage.

Tom
 
Your P&W shaper is the "later" version with a work table that DOES include a "side mounting" vertical oriented work surface. This to the right as you look at the front of the machine.

Curious to your serial number - Mine is No. 15. If you remove the two top slide retainers (four bolts each hold these two to the top of the main casting) you should find the serial number on the UNDERSIDE and to the front (nearer the clapper) on the strip. Number (very small) also located on the bushing/bearings pressed into the sides of the main casting.

Much more desirable especially as it is better made, more accurately made, and done in toolmaker tradition (this done in groups of 6 or 7 and parts made using a "prototype" as model - no drawings were made.)

You even have the Newall Patent Vise and yours seems to still work. Mine was, er, fragile and suffered a bit in past repairs. Its on my list of things to do.

More discussion at http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-315498.html



Find someone who will appreciate this. Mine is one of my BEST acquisitions. I will own it until I am gone.

Joe in NH
 
Thanks all, i am moving from Bridgeport, CT. To KY and have so much "stuff" I only spent time on a shaper in trade school and never used this having a bridgeport. Thinking if i never used it prob should sell.
Joe yes same machine, except no flat belt pulleys anymore. Yours looks very tidy. This one should clean up good too. I will look for the serial number in the morn. Joe I would like your opinion on an as is price if you wouldn't mind. Thanks P.S. I bought this yrs ago from widdow of Pratt & Whittney toolmaker employee. I believe she said he aquired from p&w storage locker, and was very fond of it.
couple more pics
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The way to get use out of a shaper is to USE the shaper. I just relegated myself to learning how to use it and did all my work I could on the shaper instead of the mill. Now, if it is a simple facing or planing job, it goes on the shaper, as well as pulling off some stuff a mill can't do.
 
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Joe I would like your opinion on an as is price if you wouldn't mind.

Given that Bill just sold one for $1000 and the fact that you're missing the pulley and flywheel (the feed rod, anchor and possibly connection are easily replicated) Perhaps $750 ask but shoot for $500 net.

The flywheel is essential to use of this machine by hand - which is one of the primary attractions. While hard to get an "exact copy" flywheel with the round rim section and curved spokes, a small to medium size gas engine flywheel could be adapted and serve.

The cone pulley is a simple affair and I probably have two that might be adapted with no one the wiser.

Or one could use it the way it is (it works!) and just count the changes as "historical adaptation." The changes were seemingly done "reversibly."

Still we're talking a machine that only four (five including the Smithsonian) extant examples exist.

This is almost into the realm of "between buyer and seller" on the basis of name brand and rarity.

Hope this helps...

Attached I have the 1878 P&W catalog page cut framed and hung on the wall above my shaper. (Thank you Ed Battison)

I believe she said he aquired from p&w storage locker, and was very fond of it.

If you can, remember her name and who her husband was. Some additional research by someone will yield his tenure and his service.

In other words, information that you or I casually brush by is possibly even more important than even the machine of our interest. We can, at extreme cost, replicate any 19th century machine. But information such as who, what, when, where - once lost can never be remade - at ANY cost.

I have a 19th century Shepard, Lathe & Co. Makers lathe in my shop (you see the outboard end of the bed in my shaper picture.) This lathe came to me as a "de-accession" at the New England Wireless & Steam Museum. It was outside their scope, occupying room they might use for steam display, and then Director Dan Fay took my interest to heart and eventually it came to me.

And that lathe came with a story that it was the work lathe of a 19th century Brown & Sharpe machinist who decided to bring it home and use it when B&S was doing some upgrading. His grand-daughter was now (1970s) elderly and was cleaning out her grandparents house for sale when she donated the lathe to the museum.

Dan Fay is now gone (2003 IIRC) I have since asked Bob Merriam (Founder and Director Emeritus) of NEWSM what he remembers of that grand-daughter or other details?

Wouldn't it be nice to know exactly who that machinist was who thought enough of his lathe to bring it home with him and preserve it for the ages?

Bob Merriam: "Lathe? What lathe was that? I don't remember a lathe."

Today I cannot connect a familial name, when B&S "cleaned out," who exactly this machinist was or any other information other than what I have said above. Something important (in my mind) has been LOST.

I should have paid more attention at the time. Today Bob Merriam is to be forgiven. A lot of machinery passed through his hands over the years and now he himself is no longer young. Our minds, and our memories IS a most fragile thing.

So gather as much information about your machine tools BEFORE you go to sell. Or even when you buy. In a lot of ways a sale is a REFORMAT of information regarding our machines. Information which gives our successors some additional indication on WHAT EXACTLY they are inheriting - and the technical and creational legacy of these machinists now long gone and forgotten.

I see Fred Jaggi (2016 Director of NEWSM) died in September. Fred was a "volunteer" at NEWSM Organization at the time of my purchase of the lathe.

Time eventually erases ALL we know about the past.

Joe in NH
 
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Certain hand-crank drill presses have a similar size flywheel, with round section, and curved spokes. Perhaps one such would serve and look correct.
 
Thanks very much gentlemen. I appreciate all the wisdom here. I am kinda thinking of keeping it, and put it working. Got to build a shop at new home first. Thanks all.
 
"I am kinda thinking of keeping it, and put it working. "

Now, THAT is good news! As I said, the only way to learn to use it is to use it. Just try it when you aren't in a hurry and have a job that can be done with the shaper instead of a milling machine. Not only will it teach you how to use the shaper, you will gain some work holding and other setup skills you might otherwise never catch. It's really great for skimming rusted up or torch cut edges and surfaces. You have to sharped the tool but it's quick and easy to touch up the single point lathe bit, versus burning up an endmill or facemill.
 
Been almost 40 yrs since I used a shaper in trade school. Vg points to use it. Thanks Bob I ppreciste you volunteering your help and hope to take you up on your offer next yr lord willing. I checked the serial number and it is number 2. That sealed the deal for me. Bob it was 20 yrs ago I got this and all I can rennet is the widow carrying on a bit about the shaper as opposed to all the other machines I bought which I was more interested in and didn't pay much heed. I wish I did now.
Edit: actually it was 1990 I had just started a new job that I stayed 15 yrs at and remember trying to sell it then. Time flies
 
The serial number on Pratt & Whitney machines was "restarted" on each major design renovation.

A planer formerly of my ownership was bona-fide 1877 with at least four earlier designs extant (the immediately preceded design machine was photographed at the Philadelphia Exhibition) The serial number on mine was No. 1 and George of George's Basement site had a similar machine as "No. 8." http://www.georgesbasement.com/PandWplaner.htm

Earlier design planers have been observed with numbers as high as 32 http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/shapeaholic/Planer.html

So I would guess your shaper to be probably 1877 or 1878. And made in the first group of 6 or 7 or 8 that was made in the then new pattern.

Joe in NH
 
A lot of the old machines didn't have serial numbers, just lot numbers so the shop could keep track of which parts went to which machine as the work progressed. Only later did actual serial numbers come that tracked the machine individually throughout the entire production run.
 
Joe,
I don't think the numbers on these shapers are serial numbers. I am restoring the one I had for the new owner and it is stamped 6 so I think they are batch numbers.
 
Joe,
I don't think the numbers on these shapers are serial numbers. I am restoring the one I had for the new owner and it is stamped 6 so I think they are batch numbers.

Possibly.

Machine making from prototype evolved from traditional wooden plane-making.

A wooden plane of successful construction would become the "prototype." Small details such as "spring" and cheeks, and boxing would be adapted until the craftsman was sure he could replicate the plane and had a marketable product.

Then planes would be made in groups of 6 or 7 or 8, usually by one craftsman and all made as "identical" as possible using the prototype and calipers as dimensional checking.

(Funny that 6 or 7 or 8 number - this seems to be the "optimal" number of copies: a craftsman can keep in his head the details of this number of necessarily inexact copies - but becomes bored with lesser numbers affecting quality of work - or overwhelmed to the detriment of quality with larger numbers as individual differences become blurred to the mind's eye. Note that the same number ratios are prevalent in echelons of workers or soldiers - and for the same reasons.)

But this does not explain Pratt & Whitney existence of "serial" numbers larger than 6 or 7 or 8. But then again, multiples of 6 or 7 or 8 could have been constructed - but using the "echelon" system - or even different craftsmen.

My number 15 shaper might be in the second or third such grouping to be made?

Part of what we know of Pratt & Whitney is that crafts-people tended to become "specialist." Easy jobs such as making screws or nuts or shafts went to those lower down in the craft tradition. More involved jobs such as dovetails and gears went to the higher standing craftsmen. The highest positions went to the "assemblers" (those whose job it was to "accomodate" and compensate for accumulated errors.) Still, a craftsman might make only "shafts" for one particular machine tool - and spend a career becoming expert at that alone.

Joe in NH
 








 
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