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Barnes Lathe 4.5

RobbyWeeds

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
My name's Rob from Pennsylvania. I am new to this forum and machining. I've always thought it was awesome and have been welding for quite some time. I wanted a lathe and mill but all I could afford was this Barnes 4.5 for now. Ode like some input on what I bought.

It came with an old repulsion motor that works great even if it's a lol under powered. The guy also gave me a belt and new 1/3 go that I just have to put the pulley on and mount.

I've turned a few pieces of mild steel just to see how everything works and I love it. I've been crazy oiling the bearings because they are in great shape and want to keep them that way. Also the ways and really smooth as well. I'm thinking of putting in drip oilers to keep everything running.

Can someone give me an idea of what I bought and what it might be worth as it sits and what it could be worth if cleaned and restored?

Thanks
Robby
 

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The 4-1/2 is probably the most "common" lathe of the Barnes bunch. The reason for this is that give a choice between a Barnes 4 and a 4-1/2, the buyer would choose the 4-1/2 because it had full threading capability. Turning capacity between the two machines is similar, but threading sort of made the difference in attractiveness.

Meanwhile, one would have the choice between a 4-1/2 and a 5. The turning capacity of the 5 is greater, both in diameter and length, but the price of a 5 was nearly double the 4-1/2. So given a choice, the frugal farmer (a common market) would choose the 4-1/2 as the most versatile for the money.

In proportion (estimate) for every 6 Barnes 4-1/2s seen today, one sees 3 Barnes 5, and one Barnes 4.

So consequently, the Barnes 4-1/2 is probably the least valued of the bunch - except for that "seller who just doesn't know what he has" factor. A common perception is an old lathe is simply an old lathe - and Barnes lathes of all sizes can still be seen and bought below market.

The usually found Barnes 4-1/2 is usually minus the seat and underarm, minus the flywheel and treadle, and usually (but not always) setup to be run by a 1/3 hp washing machine motor. While overhead shaft driven versions of the Barnes lathes were available in the day, the majority of Barnes lathes were probably sold as velocipede lathes with pedals and flywheel. Most of the Barnes seen on Craigslist are motor driven with a drive somehow "cobbled" together and minus flywheel/pedals, or the Barnes dedicated overhead counter. Such is the pervasiveness of grid power electricity and the valid perception of "improvement" that electric motors offered. One wonders where all the flywheels and pedal and seat assemblies went?

Today, a plug & play motor driven Barnes with a reasonable complement of tooling on original legs goes for about $400. I have bought a sawed off leg "bench top" version for about $150 - but this minus most of the tooling and the motor drive. It did come with a small diameter step pulley which may or may not have been an original Barnes adaptation for electric motor drive - the counter shaft version step pulley is considerably larger.

Add seat underarm, pedals, flywheel, and a reasonable selection of gears and chucks and you're probably talking about a grand - the market has awoken to the uniqueness of a treadle/velocipede drive - although pricing on parts to bring an incomplete Barnes back to completion can tip the scale to "financially nonviable." You may be better off to set aside (or even sell at a loss) an incomplete barnes and instead buy a more complete machine. In general, if your lathe is incomplete for treadle - if it is missing more than one essential part of the velocipede drive, I would give up the thought of a "reversion."

MANY parts have been reproduced for the Barnes lathes. Timekiller of this board is but one of the reproducers. Another source of missing parts is Ebay - but you may be waiting for a while for a good price, or the right part. Mostly parts can be identified as for the 4-1/2 or the 5, but sometimes some confusion can occur, even with the seller. It helps to have a good picture from a known lathe size for comparison.

Its also possible to shop Barnes parts on Ebay more generally. For instance, use "tailstock" as a search term on Ebay and you'll find 300 tail stocks from various makes of lathes - some identified, some not. A seller may recognize a tail stock as a tail stock, but may not recognize it as a "barnes" tail stock. Sometimes one can get a really good buy using this method. I myself scored a Barnes No. 5 face plate by simply plugging in "face plate" to the search engine. Comparison with a verified Barnes Face plate picture brought me the correct part for about $25 total including shipping.

Barnes 4-1/2 is fortunate in that the change gears are DP16 - which is available from places like Boston Gear. Be advised though that gears from Boston Gear and most other US sources are priced beyond reasonable and while the gears may list in the catalog - they may not be available off the shelf.

Barnes 4-1/2 is fortunate in having a Morse Taper 1 in both spindle and tail stock quill. It is possible to buy off the shelf drill chucks and arbors that will fit.

Commonly missing from the tooling for a Barnes 4-1/2 is the "bent wrench" which is bent to reach the dovetail slide nut under the carriage which is nearly obscured from sight by the bed "horns." To un-clamp and move the unique swiveling dovetail slide will require a thin open end wrench - bent is nice if you can find or make one.

You will note that the Barnes 4-1/2 does not have a "thread dial." Usual mode of operation used the pedals to advance the thread cut, and then backing off the tool, one pedaled in the other direction to "back" the lathe to the thread start for the next deeper cut. One never removes the half nuts from the lead screw once the thread was started.

Late in the Barnes production it was noticed that if the two lead screws were accurately "synchronized", the double side half nuts would transfer from the "right to left" lead screw to the "left to right" lead screw without losing synchronicity and causing the lathe to ruin the previous cut of the thread. An operator could keep the lathe turning normally, and simply manipulate the half nuts lever from forward to reverse - and cut a perfect thread. Barnes for a while near the end of production provided counter shafts with only a forward clutch - no reverse was needed. And this design quirk was ideal for use with a non-reversible motor.

You may find "match marks" on the gears of the lead screws which indicate this factory sync.

Anyway, a unique machine with much attraction to home users.

An observation - it seems that Barnes lathes are commonly found in chicken coops today. As befits their agricultural origins as well as their continued perceived value. "We'll not scrap this yet - it will come in handy - where will I put it where it will be dry?"

Good luck. Let us know what you're up to - or needing.

Joe in NH
Owner of a Barnes 4-1/2 AND a Barnes 5 - both velocipede and nearly complete.
 
Setting aside the collector appeal of the machine, it looks like you got what I would consider to be a a fully tooled lathe in decent shape, or at least close to it. You have a faceplate, dog plate, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, Tool post, tool holders, a steady rest, centers, a few dogs, really just about to everything basic that you need to turn out some parts on that lathe, I didn’t see the follow rest but it could be there, they’re rarely used anyway, I do see that you have the reverse jaws for the 3 jaw, those are often lost, th change gears look to be there, that’s really good too, another item that often is separated from old lathes, the fact that this stuff has all stayed with this lathe for all these years is a very good sign in my eyes, and is the mark of a well cared for machine.

As a first lathe, you could, and many have, started with much worse, and much less. This will be a good lathe to learn on and you will probably have little trouble making whatever parts the machine is capable of on it.

Drip oilers were a common modification made back in the day, personally I think they look pretty slick on an old lathe, and nobody ever hurt a lathe by oiling it too much, so I’d say go for it, you will probably forget to turn them off at least once though so maybe just fill them a bit here and there. Probably want some 10 or 20wt non detergent for the spindle, run way oil on everything else, stay away from grease.

Read the south bend book “how to run a lathe” google it you can get a free pdf somewhere, it’s not a massive book but gives you all the basics, shows some interesting setups, a very good general book to get you started.

Welcome to old iron addiction stage 1.
 
thanks so much for the very informative and detailed replies. its more than I could have asked for.

are any parts with other machines such as an atlas or something else? also what about new tooling such as tool holders and cutters or any such other tooling or parts im not thinking of.

thanks
rob
 
When the barnes lathes were originally sold, they were provided with a set of "hand forged" carbon steel tools in the various standard edges - usually 7 or 8 tools total including a boring bar forged from the solid tool steel blank. Today these tools may be found individually, but they're not marked as Barnes and tend to blend in to the "clean-out" detritus that occupy most shops in generational transition.

That said, most users today are not equipped to maintain hand forged tools and instead rely on modern insert bit tooling of the Armstrong, Williams, or even import bit holder versions. Barnes standard toolpost will take any of the smaller bit holders - but check your tool post slot size against what the available bit holder size is to be sure of a fit.

Seen often on Ebay is the full set of Craftsman/Atlas lathe tools, usually made by either Williams or Armstrong, assembled and now sold by someone who has made a conversion to quick change tooling. These sets fit the Barnes 5 - They may fit also the Barnes 4-1/2 too - but the 4-1/2 tool post is overall smaller.

Sets of Armstrong holders in "00" size DO fit the Barnes 4-1/2, and possibly (but not verified) the "0" size. Size 1 is more Barnes 5/Atlas 12" sizing. From bits and pieces I have found on Ebay a fair number of "00" tools, almost a functionally complete set. Buying the set already complete makes more sense than buying the individual tools.

Barnes lathes were originally provided with a unique "elevating" tool post (two piece ring affording adjustment of tool height by "unscrewing") but no "rocker/ring" assembly such as is used on a more modern tool post. It is possible to use a modern South Bend tool post in the Barnes tool post slot without modification, but you may need to provide an "auxiliary ring" below the rocker & ring of the South Bend device to allow the tool to be adjusted in the correct rocker range.

The tool post slot/dovetail on the top of the tool post slide IS a standard tool post slot as indicated by "Machinery's Handbook" - and you can buy a standard T-nut to fit the slot. For a while before I found the correct Barnes elevating tool post for my No. 5 I used a tool post landed on the standard T-nut - which gives the very secure footing that you need (besides some insurance against breaking out the dovetail slot.)

Anyway, good luck on the Barnes.

I have been able to buy both my machines "well" and should either of these be sold (I'm thinking of selling the No. 5) I will be able to get away with a pretty near whole financial skin.

On an allied note - even if you spend more than you can realize on a sale or Barnes parts now, you may now have the satisfaction of bringing together what time and general inattention has sundered - and Barnes lathes are not likely to become more common anytime soon. You have a good investment almost regardless of what you spend - within reason.

An expression commonly said: You didn't pay too much, you just bought too soon" applies. And time heals all financial wounds - another side benefit of the time value of tools, er, money. One in the same, really.

And besides - at what price do you take your pleasure? Do what pleases YOU. Life is short and you may NOW have the chance to bring back and use something historic. You may be the last savior this machine will ever see. Future generations are likely to not be near so lucky.

Joe in NH
 
Thanks for replying. Everything everyone has said has helped me understand what I bought.

Everyone here seems to be so helpful and willing to lend there expertise.

Thanks again. Does anyone have recommendations on what I should do to first to either upgrade/clean/maintain this lathe? Or something to buy that would help or something I'm missing?

Thanks
Rob
 
I have a few other questions if anyone can help. The spindle thread size is one. Also is there a way to fit a er32 collect system either one the MT1 taper or the spindle thread. And is it possible to make an adapter from the spindle thread to something more common?

Thanks a million. These are just shots in the dark so I apologize if they come off dumb.

Rob
 
Nose thread is 7/8-10 - but take these numbers advisedly as sizing can vary depending on the lathe and "mated" faceplate/chucks.

My Barnes 5 is 1-8NC which like the 7/8 thread is a UNC size. I have bought and used "aftermarket" backing plates and faceplates to use on this lathe - and found with those that a 1-8NC tap will clean up a started thread for a nice fit. Of course everything depends more on the "register" shoulder which is where the actual accuracy in mounting lies.

I've mentioned a recent acquisition of a Barnes faceplate for this lathe for small money on Ebay. When the plate (which can't be mistaken by any other from its unusual layout of slots) arrived, I was chagrined to find that it would not fit onto my spindle. A check by the usual methods (thread gauge, dowel wrapped in masking tape) assured me that the thread count was correct, I resolved to "clean up" this thread using the 1-8NC tap I had used before - which I did - taking off a measurable amount of chip in the process.

Now the faceplate fits fine. Of course unlike a chuck, a faceplate tend to get "mounted" and left through the whole operation. Actual machining is done once the part is manually "centered" on the plate - unlike a chuck which provides the centering.

So I guess one can conclude that actual thread sizing for Barnes lathes is at best "approximate" to UNC?

And if you think about it - this makes sense. The most accurate thread one could cut on a lathe spindle would be the one cut while the spindle was held between centers - and not necessarily done using a die - even one held in a tail stock die holder.

Barnes obviously made each to fit each other - and possibly no other.

I'm getting around it by use of the register for accuracy. So be sure of yours before you modify the hole threads.

The ER collet system I'm not familiar with.

You can make "collet mounts" to thread onto your spindle and give the proper taper to take ANY draw-in collet you know the specifics of. The thru-hole in a Barnes 4-/2 is mighty small however. More of a "knock-out hole."

Good luck

Joe in NH
 
Joe thank you so much for all the info and help.

I do have 2 more questions.

1. My banjo has to be held to engage the power feed. The minute I let go, the change gears disengage. There are 2 bolts that hold it to the main body but I don't know if tightening those bolts is an acceptable practice. I'm scared that It's meant to be held by hand in case there is a jam then the change gears can easily disengage themselves. If bolted tightly there would be no give, unless the bolts were only slightly tightened and they would move if there was a jam. I just don't know if tightening them is acceptable. It's hard to cut threads and hold the change gears together.

2. If there are any .pdf docs available about my Barnes 4.5 specifically. Service manual or owners manual specifically. I just want some torque specs and service guidelines if I need to take apart the spindle to replace the belt or to clean everything.

3. Can you replace the bushing/bearings with ball or roller bearings? I do see that they get great lubrication so I'm more curious rather than in need of fixing anything.

Sorry to be a nuisance but I think Joe mentioned catching "Barnesitus" and i may be infected.

Rob
 
Joe's replies are great and well presented - experience at work. Be careful on speed as the headstock was designed first for foot power and then a line shaft that gave it comparable speed. Have seen a number that were converted to an electric motor that ran them faster and the rear bearing froze to the shaft. N1eeds well oiling!

Here is a link to a video on the foot powered version that might help some. Roy Underhill of the Woodwright's shop on PBS has several of these and there is a show out there that he did just on the 4 1/2

Barnes #4 1/2 Metal lathe Barnes 4 1/2 Foot Powered Metal Lathe - YouTube

For more on foot powered machinery, check out Foot & Hand Powered Wood & Metal Working Machines - Foot Powered Machinery

Hope this helps. Nice little lathe!

Thanks Ed
 
Ed's comments on bearings are right on - but a conversion to ball bearings is possible - but also possibly ill advised. I guess I would say that if you can use the lathe unmodified then leave it as it is and keep going - albeit a little less quickly.

I'll repeat my PM reply to you here (and edit out your plaudit to me and my holiday reply.) Yunno - for the record.

1. When I engage my banjo for power feed. If I don't keep my hand on it and pressure the gears will slip out. I do see that there are 2 nuts that hold the banjo to the spindle body but I don't know if that's not common practice to tighten them to keep the change gears engaged. I don't know if that would cause damage if the gears "needed" to slip out.

The "banjo" would normally be fastened "tight" to the bed when set up to hold gears in a "configuration."

Normal setup for threading includes a gear choice from the "spindle" list placed on the spindle, another gear from the "screw" list place on the lead screw (of course you're driving TWO lead screws through Barnes' unique double lead screw arrangement - each with their own possibly mated gears) You then use the LARGE gear - in your case 88 teeth as the "stud gear" and locate a pivot stud on the banjo such that it - and the positioning of the banjo allows all the gears to touch through the 88 gear. You adjust everything in a fashion only to bring it all together - and tighten the two screws affixing the banjo to the BED

Barnes 4-1/2 banjo compared to a Barnes 5 banjo (radius of curved slots the primary difference)

176624d1469655955-barnes-no-4-lathe-no-5-catalogue-maybe-another-no-5-a-no-5-rev-wheel-brackets.jpg


Commonly seen is a small "handle" on the banjo to allow it to be more easily moved/adjusted - this handle is frequently found broken off. I've seen banjos also made "custom" out of plate or whatever is handy.

Compound gearing is similar - but in this case you use a pair of numbered gears according to the chart in the stud position. These are married together on a keyed sleeve and the barnes spindle position SHOULD include the possibility of two positions for the gear to be mounted there through use of a keyed collar/sleeve along with the nut. (either sleeve first - then gear, or gear first - then sleeve.) You will set it up with the lead screw gear and idler in an "inner" position and the spindle gear and its idler (part of the pair) in the "outer" location.

For ordinary turning, you simply set up any pair of the larger gears (one on spindle and one on stud) to hit against the 88 gear - which is mounted on the lead screw position - again, by moving the stud position and adjusting the banjo you should be able to make something that will drive the carriage at a VERY fine feed rate. I've done the calculating for this and you end up with like 168TPI if you use the 88 gear this way for threading.

When the lathe is usually first found - the 88 gear is usually on the lead screw as this is the position most usually used for common turning. Unfortunately this rather exposed position leaves the possibility for accident - a LOT of 88 gears have been broken in moving the lathe across an uneven floor and the legs bolts fail and it all comes crashing down.

2. Do you have any .off Dodson my Barnes 4.5 such as a manual or service guide. Or can you reccomend any thing.

Unfortunately I don't know of any Barnes specific information in print - other than what I have outlined of my own experience above. Most machinists of the Barnes era were usually tradesmen - and learned their craft through apprenticeship and learning from their mentors (not a bad system actually!)

Late in the Barnes era the trade school became the usual training ground and many educators wrote books for the use of apprentices and machinists generally. One VERY good book which describes EVERYTHING you might want to know about a lathe - and can certainly be applied even to a Barnes is Robert Smith's "Advanced Machine Work." Not so advanced, the book is a sort of general overview of how to use any machine tool, but includes about half the book on lathe work. It's available online at http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/advanced-machine-work.pdf and from places online used like www.abebooks.com for about $20.

Once again - and for the record - good luck with this.

Joe in NH
 
Nose thread is 7/8-10 - but take these numbers advisedly as sizing can vary depending on the lathe and "mated" faceplate/chucks.

My Barnes 5 is 1-8NC which like the 7/8 thread is a UNC size. I have bought and used "aftermarket" backing plates and faceplates to use on this lathe - and found with those that a 1-8NC tap will clean up a started thread for a nice fit. Of course everything depends more on the "register" shoulder which is where the actual accuracy in mounting lies.

I've mentioned a recent acquisition of a Barnes faceplate for this lathe for small money on Ebay. When the plate (which can't be mistaken by any other from its unusual layout of slots) arrived, I was chagrined to find that it would not fit onto my spindle. A check by the usual methods (thread gauge, dowel wrapped in masking tape) assured me that the thread count was correct, I resolved to "clean up" this thread using the 1-8NC tap I had used before - which I did - taking off a measurable amount of chip in the process.

Now the faceplate fits fine. Of course unlike a chuck, a faceplate tend to get "mounted" and left through the whole operation. Actual machining is done once the part is manually "centered" on the plate - unlike a chuck which provides the centering.

So I guess one can conclude that actual thread sizing for Barnes lathes is at best "approximate" to UNC?

And if you think about it - this makes sense. The most accurate thread one could cut on a lathe spindle would be the one cut while the spindle was held between centers - and not necessarily done using a die - even one held in a tail stock die holder.

Barnes obviously made each to fit each other - and possibly no other.

I'm getting around it by use of the register for accuracy. So be sure of yours before you modify the hole threads.

The ER collet system I'm not familiar with.

You can make "collet mounts" to thread onto your spindle and give the proper taper to take ANY draw-in collet you know the specifics of. The thru-hole in a Barnes 4-/2 is mighty small however. More of a "knock-out hole."

Good luck

Joe in NH
Hi Joe,
Apologies for resurrecting an old thread.

However I’m picking up a Barnes 4 1/2 this week that looks to be in fairly inact condition, including the pedals, flywheel etc:
C2450E66-B85A-4B98-8644-C9321321B18C.jpeg
0418AB90-6380-42A2-9D45-EA44A08365D8.jpeg
I have been looking for a decent foot powered lathe to do wood turning, without much luck.

I found this one and am picking it up Tuesday for $400 with the hopes of using it for wood turning.

I hope to use the 1”x8tpi wood lathe chucks off my modern Rikon lathe on it, as well as an MT1 drive and live center.

You said the spindle size on the Barnes 4 1/2 is 7/8” x 10tpi?

I’ve found numerous different size and TPI adapters for use with modern 1” x 8tpi wood lathe chucks, but nothing whatsoever with a 7/8” x 10tpi.

Could a 3/4” x 10tpi to 1” x 8tpi spindle adapter be modified with a 7/8” x 10tpi tap to make it the proper adapter size, and enable the Barnes 4 1/2 spindle to use the modern wood lathe chuck?
 
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