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    Default Big, Big Wisconsin T-Head engine

    Hello folks,

    Iam new in these parts and not sure if this should go here or elsewhere. First a bit of back ground. Iam in the process of bringing back to life a Wisconsin Model PT engine. I know, I know..... Wisconsin makes those neat air cooled engines. However, a long time ago they made a whole line of water cooled 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines. They powered a whole bunch of tractors and trucks and even the Stutz Bearcat used a Wisconsin T-head.

    Anyway, mine is a 1575 lb. 6 cylinder Model PT dating from 1925 (5-3/4" bore, 7" stroke) that translates to about 18 liters. It came from a Lombard Model N log hauler. (another story). Incidently that crankcase is 500 lb bronze casting.

    Now for my machinist question: I need to cut a new helical gear for the oil pump drive. An original gear was graciously provided to use as a go-by. I have never cut a helical gear - Is it possible to use the gear I have to set-up or do I need to calculate-out everything? Iam a newby so bear with me.

    Best regards,

    Terry


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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Harper View Post
    .... Wisconsin makes those neat air cooled engines. However, a long time ago they made a whole line of water cooled 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines. They powered a whole bunch of tractors and trucks and even the Stutz Bearcat used a Wisconsin T-head.
    Welcome Terry. That's interesting, I didn't know that history of Wisconsin, good to know. Neat project.

    Helical gears are a real challenge for home machinists to make. It takes a real complicated setup with a gear driven indexer on a universal horizontal mill, or else a gear hobber or gear shaper equipped for helical cutting. If you are relatively new to this as you say, I'd recommend farming it out to a gear shop.

    By way of explanation, I cut spur gears every day, and I would farm out a helical to someone better equipped rather than buying all the tooling.

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    Welcome Terry - read thru this thread from another section and you will get a feel for what is involved.

    Helical Lead? 30T drive gear K&T

    John Oder

    On Edit - that is the cylinder casting pattern that is in the little booklet reprinted by Nation Builder Books called Cylinder and Frame Patterns - 1941

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    Thanks John, Great thread.

    Luckly I have access to the equipment - a friend has a well stocked shop however he has never cut a helical gear so its a learning curve for both of us. Attached is a picture of the gear I need to replicate and also a Lombard tractor. Note the smashed brass housing - there was a lot of brass on this engine - intake, water fittings, lifter guides etc. Most of it was brutally removed for salvage, thus the bent valves. Currently we are well on our way to getting the valve-train rebuilt (Fabricated two new lifters, guides, and scrounged oversize valves to turn-down) and this winter I will make up some of the pattern and core boxes I need.

    Best regards,

    Terry




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    Terry,

    Do you have the Lombard hauler? You're right about Wisconsins. They were in a lot of old farm tractors, highway trucks and cars, industrial, even made water cooled for launches and other marine use. There's one restored ( a BIG one) down in Marion, Ohio, home of the Huber tractor. Don't think they ever used them though.

    Ray

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    Here is some more from Terry.

    http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewt...47550&start=45

    John Oder

    On edit:

    I know the question will come up. What to make it from?

    Two bronzes suggested for gears in the NFFS Brass and Bronze Standard Casting Alloys are both tough to machine: C86300 Manganese Bronze and C95400 Aluminum Bronze.
    Last edited by johnoder; 09-05-2009 at 05:01 PM. Reason: Add suggested material

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    Ray,

    Sure wish I had the rest of the tractor. Unfortunatly they are a very, very rare beast. The specs on my engine list 104 hp at 1000 rpm. and a fuel consumption of 8 gallons an hour. Amazingly after sitting over 75 years it wasn't stuck!

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    OK this is definitely a rant here.

    I see all kinds of vintage machinery with features like those helical gears, or
    bevel gears, or other features where I might look at them and pull my hair
    out, trying to figure out just how the *heck* those things were made back
    in the 1920s.

    Somebody had the job of making those helical gears back then. Darned
    if they're not so simple to reproduce right now though.

    Seems like folks back then were just flat-out smarter and tougher.

    Jim

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    Welcome aboard Terry. This won't help much but in my area there is a big following for the old Wisconsin engines. The Amish in our area use them for all kinds of thing. From running electric generators for the barn to adapting them to horse drawn hay bailers that the church allows. Seems they are allowed to use engines for everything as long as it's not driving the vehical.
    Some of these are OLD Wisconsins, much like yours. Can't tell you where they get their part but one thing for sure is it's not off the internet.

    Looks like you have a very cool project ahead of you. If there is a way try to involve the litle girl in the picture as much as possible. Kids these days don't get enough of this kind of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    OK this is definitely a rant here.

    I see all kinds of vintage machinery with features like those helical gears, or
    bevel gears, or other features where I might look at them and pull my hair
    out, trying to figure out just how the *heck* those things were made back
    in the 1920s.

    Somebody had the job of making those helical gears back then. Darned
    if they're not so simple to reproduce right now though.

    Seems like folks back then were just flat-out smarter and tougher.

    Jim

    They're not "difficult" to make, just require properly timed manipulation just as Mud said first off. This is the same classic way that drill bit were roughed out on horizontals (and maybe some still are?) before the CNC grinders became the norm.

    I have seen some Cinci Horizontals that came out of a local custom drill manufacturer (closed up 15 yrs ago of course) that had this setup on it (them?) but they even had a canted X axis that was adjustable!

    The fact is that you just need some way of making the rotary spin in time with the spindle. It's not rocket science - just machanics. You CAN doo it - but the cost and time would be ridiculous for just a few pcs when you could farm it out to someone that is already tooled and does it every day for much less.

    Not saying that the old timers weren't smart at all - and I honestly have much more respect for them than todays engineers. Just the fact that just b/c this is not home shop guy freindly part does not make it rocket science. Simply the fact of not having the right tools for the job.


    --------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    This is a very interesting thread. Jay leno supposedly needed to get a helical gear cut for a Dusenberg automobile engine. He wrote an article- subject of an earlier thread on this "Board- about difficulties in finding someone to cut the gear for the Doosy.

    Lomabard was an interesting company. The first log haulers, which is about all I ever saw pictures of, were steam powered. They also built hydro turbine governors. Two were in use until 1981 on "house turbines" at a plant I worked at. Unfortunately, some lamebrain recently decided they were hazmat (lead based paint, asbestos in the generator windings), so had the governors and generators removed as "hazmat". No pursuading anyone to let go of even a nameplate. The workmanship on those Lombard governors was the fines tof New England machinist's work.

    Lombard went on to build their own medium-speed diesel engines. These went for marine and stationary applications. A pair of them wer ein the old Poughkeepsie-Highland ferry. Lombard likely would have continued as a company but for the fact they were family owned. The owners got elderly and had no one to pass the company along to. They donated it to their church. Churches do not remain in the diesle engine and governor business- end of Lombard.

    The closest and perhaps better known and more successful version of the Lombard gasoline powered log hauler is the Linn Motor Truck. These were a half-track design, invented and built in NY State. Linn used mainly Waukesha engines for power, and their trucks could have wheels or skiis on the front axle. The last years the Linns wre built, Cummins diesel engines were offered as well as gasoline engines.

    Linn trucks were used for logging, highway plowing, and off road use. Linn stuck around in busines sinto the 50's, I think. Many highway departments in Upstate NY had Linns for plowing and grading the roads. At old machinery events in our area, one fellow brings a fully restored Linn. It is a sight to see. A group of men, some not much older than me (I am 59), gather and start reminiscing. Seems Linns were kept in use for skidding out logs well into the 60's in some parts of the Catskills.
    Top speed was about 8 mph, but there was no stopping them. Seeing the Lomabard gasoline powered log hauler has me wondering if Linn took Lombard's concept and worked it into his own design.

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    Hello Joe,

    There are actually two branches to the Lombard business tree. Alvin & Nathanial (brothers) developed the governor. Following this Alvin returned to Maine and developed chipping and debarking machines for the pulp and paper industry and a steam car among other things. He then developed the steam Lombard Log hauler in 1900. Later he sold out to the corporation that manufactured the Elvin Stoker in New York but he served in various capacities for many years.

    For a while Lombard made his own engines for his log haulers - an L-Head 4 cylinder and a 6 cylinder. Only one of these engines has survived - a 6 cylinder of unbeleivable crudeness. The last Lombard built was powered by a Fairbanks-Morse diesel. The company survived for a while providing machinery for the pulp and paper industry. Alvin died in 1933.

    Nathanial working on his own filed many, many patents. His firm went on to develope the Lombard chainsaw among other things.

    Linn worked for Lombard until 1917. The circumstances surrounding his departure are not clear. Lombard was never able capitalize on new market segments. Where as Linn's were noted for thier use in the construction industry Lombard could only gain a slight foot-hold with thier Model CS-88 and Model T.

    Their main market was always the New England timber industry with the Model F and later Model N. With the development of reliable trucks, and the ability to build cheap all-season roads the dependence on moving timber during the winter months shifted along with the need for speed over brute power.

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    Thumbs up Have you checked ......

    Hello,
    Not to discourage you from machining the helical gear, but have you checked Boston Gear, Browning, and Martin Gear? They do sell off the shelf helical gears, and you may be fortunate and they manufacture such a gear.

    Ray

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    Isn't Lombard given credit for building endless track machines long before Holt and Best? (Caterpillar)

    I haven't seen a close up of a Lombard bogey, but they look much like the Linn tracks from a distance. There is a second chain of recirculating rollers that circulates inside the main track chain on both. You can see the top loop hanging down in Terry's photo.

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    Terry,

    What a great engine you have there! 18 litres is most impressive! I look forward to any other posts you might make on this engine, Lombard, Linn and any other associated history.


    Joe,

    I think the gear Jay Leno had trouble getting made was a bit more tricky than a helical gear. It was a spiral bevel, hypoid, or something similar for a diff (from memory).

    -------------

    For those interested in early Wisconsin engines, they made some very successful racing engines too. Stutz raced at Indianapolis from 1911 - 1914 with Wisconsin engines, first T-head then SOHC.

    In 1915 three Stutz cars finished at Indy finishing 3rd, 4th and 7th. The 3rd placed car came to NZ in 1924 where it raced for several years and fortunately survives as pride of the Southward Museum. The Wisconsin engine has SOHC, 4-valve (non-detachable head), ball-bearing mains, approx. 130 bhp at 3200-3300 rpm. The Stutz transmission is part of the rear axle. I have seen this car running on a race track (slowly) here in NZ, great stuff. BTW, this engine was later used in a speed boat and the car was restored from a pile of rusted parts.

    http://www.thecarmuseum.co.nz/index....g2_itemId=2373
    Last edited by Peter S; 09-07-2009 at 06:41 PM. Reason: spelling, add link

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    Mud,

    Yes, Lombard had his first machine running in November of 1900. He filed for a patent on Nov. 9th 1900 and it was granted on May 21st. 1901. Holt's didn't appear until 1904.

    Lombard used a roller chains (Linn used a similar arangement with a bit more refinement) However, Lombard did use steel bogies on some of the smaller tractors like the CS-88 and Model-T. Here are the links to the Lombard and Linn patents:

    http://www.google.com/patents?id=e3R...ombard&f=false

    http://www.google.com/patents?id=IPZ...20LINN&f=false

    There are indeed two rows of rollers per side. They run between ridges cast into the back side of the pads and in the shoe. The first photo is the track arangement on a model N (gas) at some point the roller chains where shortened note that this is diffrent than the patent drawings. Its hard to find two Lombards that are identical!

    The second photo is a steamer.

    Timekiller,
    Thanks for the info. I will try them. If I can buy one or one that can be modified to work at a reasonable cost I would perfer to go that way.

    Best regards,


    Terry
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100_0039-.jpg   gw933h699.jpg  

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    Default Update

    Just a quick up-date on my efforts to bring this big brute back to life.

    Work has been moving forward slowly - a 6 month stint in Florida didn't advance the cause. However we have made progress.

    The helical gear issue has been solved - Iam using the original that was provided as a go-by.

    I also scored an complete water pump and impeller The casting on mine had been smashed and the bronze impeller had ground itself ragged.

    I will still need to turn a new shaft and re-babbit the bearings.

    Below are some photos of the latest progress. We machined new cast iron valve guides - the originals were cast in one piece. To save machine time we made the large diameter boss as a sperate press-fit piece.

    New alloy valves are no-hand - they are over size and will need to be cut and ground. They were originally intended for a G.E. Locomotive

    I just finished the corebox and pattern for the oil pump drive housing. It will
    be cast in bronze as was the original. I also have the corebox and pattern
    for the aluminum shrouds that enclose the valve stems.

    Now its onto the patterns for intake manifold - luckly this is 6 seperate fittings soldered together.

    Again progress is slow but any progress is good progress!








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    Default wisconsin

    Hello Terry,

    Can you contact me i have a Wisconsin 4 cyl and i am intersted in some parts you have made.
    Best regards

    Kirtap
    Belgium

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    Hello Kirap,

    I sent you a PM.



    Just finished the first pattern for the intake manifold. I started with one of the Tee's - yup the easy piece first! This will be cast in bronze then machined and counterbored for the brass tubes conecting the fittings.

    I messed-up my notch for the leg of the tee - thus the excess filler! (a fine cabinet maker Iam not)




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    Please continue with progress reports!


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