Brown and Sharpe #2 surface grinder

Dave Rynearson · Dec 1, 2017

Any thoughts about this machine for a possible rehab? Have always wanted one. Maybe this may be more doable than I the flather lathe I posted previously. Thanks.
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favorite this post Brown And Sharpe Surface Grinder No 2 - $500 (North Brookfield) hide this posting
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make / manufacturer: Brown & Sharpe
model name / number: No 2
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Selling a Brown & Sharp Surface Grinder No. 2 with auto feed mechanism. It is in decent shape but could use to be cleaned up. Comes with a large magnetic vice and other various small items.

$500.00 obo
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johnoder · Dec 1, 2017

Has to have excellent spindle - many of these were plain bearing - which work fine if in great shape and intelligently managed - like the right kind of oil

Has to have excellent ways - no rollers here. Are you in to learning to scrape ways for fit and alignment?

Has to have a working magnet - if the kind that uses electricity, can be problematic

Crummy CL "photos" tell you hardly anything.

Dave Rynearson · Dec 1, 2017

Do you think it's worth taking a look. I missed one of the pictures.

johnoder · Dec 1, 2017

Dave Rynearson said:
Domyou think it's worth taking a look

You bet, since you need to know lots more about it

L Vanice · Dec 1, 2017

My grinder was built in 1929 and needed a lot of scraping in 1979 when I bought it. I also converted it to roller table bearings and Excello motorized spindle and bought a 6 x 18 permanent magnetic chuck, all of which added a lot to the cost. I ended up with a very good grinder.

I think this one is 1940's. The chuck looks like a 6 x 12, so the 18" table travel will not be completely used. But the price leaves some room for fun to play with it. Learning to scrape is good to know. Perfect scraping and a wrecked spindle will not add up to a good grinder. If the spindle has ball bearings, the price of new ones will shock you, and the cost of professional installation will add even more.

Larry

StrayAlien · Dec 2, 2017

I am in the process of bringing a 1928 #2 back from a rusty grave. They are robust machines and a good project if you're up for it. The later types like the one you're looking at possibly had the sealed spindle unit. They were supposed to only be serviceable at the factory as I understand it. If the spindle is one of those and is not in great condition then you might be stuck. If the spindle is actually the plain bearing unit, then, if you're careful, you could restore it or make a new one yourself.

I am making a new one (wish me luck!): http://metalworkforums.com/f65/t199759-brown-sharpe-2-surface-grinder-basket

As johnoder says, no roller bearings and a fair bit of mechanical action going on in there - so if the table mechanisms are not working, hand cranking it will earn you some new muscles.

I am not an expert in these matters at all - but I'd be thinking about putting a 0.0001" dial on the spindle and seeing how much play there is - if any. And I'd ask to see the table and auto-cross-feed mechanisms working.

Of course, if you're just looking for a project, then cast yourself to fate and get it and work on it. I'm figuring mine is a two year project.

Greg.

Edit: PS. The photo above shows the words "plain bearing spindle" but ... I believe the sealed units were also 'plain bearings'. The plain bearings on mine are simpler bronze tapered boxes that house a straight-shaft spindle.

The manual is here:

Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

It explains more.

johnoder · Dec 2, 2017

Thumbnails are some cylindrical grinding done with B&S plain bearings reworked by me

stephen thomas · Dec 2, 2017

Someone mentioned a 6 x 12 magnet, but I missed that part?
Without at least a good permanent type magnet, that is about a $200 grinder project if the rest is all there. Maybe $250 if everything works.

But take your inspection tools and see how the ways are, run it and see if you can tell anything about the spindle bearings. If the auto feed does not work both ways, that should certainly be a bargaining point. There are some on here that prefer manual grinders for tool making. I think a first grinder ought to have auto feeds. Since it is an originally auto machine, it will still require some machining and the installation of hard stops if you want any of the advantages of a manual machine.

If everything works smoothly and quietly (except the "chunk....chunk....chunk...") of the auto reverse lever and if the ways inspect well enough, it could well be worth $500. But that style grinder has only minimal grit control and protection, and the Z axis (table in/out) ways tend to wear horribly. It is easy to overlook keeping the oil wells full, and the X axis can wear as well if the grinder was short stroked a lot. A quick method to map one is to take a small surface plate (8 x 12") and shim it on the surface, then map it with an indicator. For a grinder like this one, a .001 indicator or .0005 DTI will tell all you need. Instead of a surface plate, if you have a fitters parallel straight edge, you can use that, trying trying it in different locations.

I bought one a couple decades ago, and rescraped it maybe 15 years ago. They are kind of a neat, perfectly adequate machine. I have a hydraulic DoALL as well. I'm not sure I would spend the amount of effort on an old style mechanical as I did then, but it's a decent mid-level scraping project if you have the tools, gages, and are up to it.

If it is worn, it will grind stuff kind of domed or saddle shaped.

I have yet to replace the ball bearings in mine. It needs it. As others mentioned, maybe more $$ than the grinder cost, but I have not checked yet, either.

smt

boomerang69 · Dec 2, 2017

I had one of these 20 years ago,bought it knowing the table drive shaft was bent.Someone attempted to lift it by the table I guess.After I repaired it was a nice machine.Mine had a long belt that ran the spindle and feeds,motor in the bottom of the base.Mine also had the wet table for coolant.Wish I had it now.

marka12161 · Dec 6, 2017

I've got one of these as well. The guy i bought it from said it didn't grind flat. I pulled the table off for transport and i wouldn't be surprised if the ways were worn. could you say a bit more about the conversion to roller table bearings?

michiganbuck · Dec 6, 2017

$500 for a good running #2 is a fair price.. even though you might get one for $150 to perhaps $700 or so..even free or more. might be near dead true or need a scraping...
B&S perhaps as good or better than most any other surface grinder you might find....#2 with auto feed mechanism beats hand cranking..*Still need to check it out so to fill your needs for a good spindle and flat enough grinding..and $500 is the asking price.

I never liked the high hand wheel but if a good machine you can get used to that..

QT :[could you say a bit more about the conversion to roller table bearings?]
Conversion means buying a roller bearing table machine..They crank easy as pie..are great as long as the ball racks and balls are good..some if not most can be restored to like new with replacing racks and balls..Some machines ran on rollers and even on a chain..

Still I think oil way machines run smoother and I have ran brand new machines with both kind of long travel..for test the spindle you diamond fresh dress a new wheel perhaps a 46k and take a slow .0002 long travel cut across a mild steel part perhaps 6" long..then another .0002..or long travel across a hard steel part with a coolant spray.. looking for a smooth grind. then cross feed .005 and look for another long travel pass smooth grind..next set the wheel on a block of wood and down feed to see free play..next at mid chuck turn cross hand wheel to and back to see free play, a quarter turn is a lot but ok 3/4 turn and likely you need to replace the feed nut...having much free play then you cant trust the numbers for cross travel or down travel exactly...but still usable with checking step length with perhaps a caliper,jo block stack or micrometer.

Fair way to check the flatness is to set a good parallel on the chuck or in a vise..shim it to run zero zero at the ends and then run a tenths idicator across long travel and cross travel.

*Machine should be running so you can test..a simple vise can hold a part to grind..A not running for test machine is worth $1000 less.. so this machine is worth zero if you cant test it..except as a parts machine..

If a plane bearing machine be sure it has oil...A good plane bearing spindle is very good but takes a few minuets to warm up. all spindles should have a jog start when cold. Table oil pots should have oil also.. or you can wipe oil on long travel ways..

Dave Rynearson · Dec 8, 2017

michiganbuck said:
$500 for a good running #2 is a fair price.. even though you might get one for $150 to perhaps $700 or so..even free or more. might be near dead true or need a scraping...
B&S perhaps as good or better than most any other surface grinder you might find....#2 with auto feed mechanism beats hand cranking..*Still need to check it out so to fill your needs for a good spindle and flat enough grinding..and $500 is the asking price.

I never liked the high hand wheel but if a good machine you can get used to that..

QT :[could you say a bit more about the conversion to roller table bearings?]
Conversion means buying a roller bearing table machine..They crank easy as pie..are great as long as the ball racks and balls are good..some if not most can be restored to like new with replacing racks and balls..Some machines ran on rollers and even on a chain..

Still I think oil way machines run smoother and I have ran brand new machines with both kind of long travel..for test the spindle you diamond fresh dress a new wheel perhaps a 46k and take a slow .0002 long travel cut across a mild steel part perhaps 6" long..then another .0002..or long travel across a hard steel part with a coolant spray.. looking for a smooth grind. then cross feed .005 and look for another long travel pass smooth grind..next set the wheel on a block of wood and down feed to see free play..next at mid chuck turn cross hand wheel to and back to see free play, a quarter turn is a lot but ok 3/4 turn and likely you need to replace the feed nut...having much free play then you cant trust the numbers for cross travel or down travel exactly...but still usable with checking step length with perhaps a caliper,jo block stack or micrometer.

Fair way to check the flatness is to set a good parallel on the chuck or in a vise..shim it to run zero zero at the ends and then run a tenths idicator across long travel and cross travel.

*Machine should be running so you can test..a simple vise can hold a part to grind..A not running for test machine is worth $1000 less.. so this machine is worth zero if you cant test it..except as a parts machine..

If a plane bearing machine be sure it has oil...A good plane bearing spindle is very good but takes a few minuets to warm up. all spindles should have a jog start when cold. Table oil pots should have oil also.. or you can wipe oil on long travel ways..

Thanks for all the advice from everyone. I would have overlooked several of the items mentioned that should be inspected.

Thanks again, Dave!

L Vanice · Dec 8, 2017

marka12161 said:
I've got one of these as well. The guy i bought it from said it didn't grind flat. I pulled the table off for transport and i wouldn't be surprised if the ways were worn. could you say a bit more about the conversion to roller table bearings?

Dunbar is still around, still selling roller bearing conversions for old surface grinders. I spent the money in 1979 for two reasons. First, it made the table so easy to crank that I almost never use the power feed function. Second, it means the hours of scraping the table ways will never need to be repeated because there will be no more wear. I am completely satisfied with the product. The current price seems to be $650.

Note that rollers do not cure worn ways. You still have to have good ways to guide the rollers.

http://www.dunbarrollers.com/

Larry

marka12161 · Dec 8, 2017

L Vanice said:
Dunbar is still around, still selling roller bearing conversions for old surface grinders. I spent the money in 1979 for two reasons. First, it made the table so easy to crank that I almost never use the power feed function. Second, it means the hours of scraping the table ways will never need to be repeated because there will be no more wear. I am completely satisfied with the product. The current price seems to be $650.

Note that rollers do not cure worn ways. You still have to have good ways to guide the rollers.

http://www.dunbarrollers.com/

Larry

Very cool. Thanks Larry
Mark

stephen thomas · Dec 9, 2017

Second, it means the hours of scraping the table ways will never need to be repeated because there will be no more wear.

Larry - where i have seen the most wear on these old mechanical or hand feed B & S #2, Reid, Covel grinders (Not to mention my DoALL) is Z. I understand that in a small or home shop, some of this can be controlled by constant cleanliness and oiling. But I don't see where the Dunbar products address this?

smt

L Vanice · Dec 9, 2017

stephen thomas said:
Larry - where i have seen the most wear on these old mechanical or hand feed B & S #2, Reid, Covel grinders (Not to mention my DoALL) is Z. I understand that in a small or home shop, some of this can be controlled by constant cleanliness and oiling. But I don't see where the Dunbar products address this?

smt

The Dunbar kit makes the table ways ride on rollers, so there is no sliding contact or wear on the table ways. The saddle ways and vertical ways can still wear, but they get a tiny fraction of the miles that the table ways see.

Larry

CarbideBob · Dec 10, 2017

stephen thomas said:
Larry - where i have seen the most wear on these old mechanical or hand feed B & S #2, Reid, Covel grinders (Not to mention my DoALL) is Z. I understand that in a small or home shop, some of this can be controlled by constant cleanliness and oiling. But I don't see where the Dunbar products address this?

smt

One can install Dunbar rollers on the in/out and they will make custom sizes for you.
I have done this on cnc refitted grinders where I needed no slip/stick on in/out profiling. (Think generating a radius on a insert or ball nose end mill on the front of a face wheel)
Problem one for a manual machine is that it gives you a very free floating Z axis so any backlash in the drive screw assembly is a huge oops.
Problem two is the added height which means shimming the screw or nut assembly but you are gonna have to re-engineer this side anyways.
Problem three is that these are not the tiny needle rollers or density that you would find in a Okamoto cnc grinder so the load per roller is fairly high plus you give up a lot of "twist" stiffness.
Problem four, which shows up on a machine doing a lot of in/out moving is bearing creep as they do slip on reversal so they need to be "reset".

All that said I have machines with over 3 million cycles using them in Z. Yes about worn out but a lot of parts shipped.
On a manual machine used as a creep feed this kit on the table was not liked by my operators just as ball tables were not.
Too free and you would crash into the part as you rapid fed into the start of cut.

Never use them on turcite ways but it's a shortcut to needle/ball roller ways.
I don't do flat work and as they appear a bit crude have wondered how they stack up in this world on the X axis but the same can be said about ballway grinders which have an even lesser contact patch.
As least one gets a bunch of lines out of these, not a series of points.

A very reasonable price (dare I say cheap) product that works.
Get that I was very, very, very skeptical and did not think they would work well or live long.
The original intent was to produce a demo machine for controls and concept, not something that would actually run production.
Bob

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