Brown & Sharpe No 2 info please

Dr. Strangemill · Oct 31, 2017

Hi,I am the recent owner of a Brown and Sharpe No. 2 milling machine. I'm looking for as much info as possible. This mill was passed down from father to son, then bought by a local enthusiast about 10 years ago (the son was about 70 at the time), and finally by me this past weekend. From what I gather, instead of a patent date, it has "Patent Pending" cast onto the side. I see the raised flat part under the support arm that a serial number may have been stamped on, but the paint/grease is so thick, it is unreadable. There is, however, a serial number stamped on the front of the supporting arm of 565.

What I'm looking for is a date range to this machine, any and all info about it, including original color and specs.

Attached to it is also a Rusnok Vertical milling head, obviously added later as an upgrade. Any info in that would be welcome as well.

I basically stumbled on this listing, went to see the machine and fell in love with the way it looks, so I bought it all, tooling and VFD included for $650.

What I'd love to do is restore it, and possibly convert it to a cnc, or is that sacrilege??

PS, sorry for the sideways images. Can't seem to be able to edit and rotate them.

oldisnew · Oct 31, 2017

B&S no. 2 is a capable manual machine. Unlikely to be successfully converted to CNC.

johnoder · Oct 31, 2017

The best candidates for conversion are those mills that already have BALL SCREWS - like cast off NC/CNC Bridgeports with dead control

The B&S could be around 1900 - the ones in the 1917 catalog look more modern

Dr. Strangemill · Oct 31, 2017

This is exactly what I wanted to hear. I'm glad to hear these machines are capable. It sure looks like it was made that way. The x axis has a little bell at the end that goes off when the auto feed is engaged and it reaches the end. The same trigger disengages the autofeed.

I was inclined to think the like on the age.

Oh, I did notice that the x axis pinion gear has a bent tooth. I'm going to try to file it down some.

L Vanice · Oct 31, 2017

B&S numbered the model of all of the various types of machines they built, so just saying No. 2 is not definitive. I have a B&S No. 2 surface grinder, for instance. So your thread title is bordering on the edge of being the sort the site owner locks because the title is not sufficiently descriptive.

My B&S catalog is from 1925 and the cut of the No. 2 mill is from a different angle than your photos. I do see the patent number list on the side of the mill in the cut. If the patent dates are known, then your machine is likely older than the earliest date.

I agree with John that CNC is not practical, but you could add a DRO if you want to.

Larry

Dr. Strangemill · Oct 31, 2017

I started to notice that about B&S numbering. I wonder if I can edit the post title...

Here is a pic of the casting on the side.

Dr. Strangemill · Oct 31, 2017

Universal? Plain? Light type? Those are the questions...

johnoder · Oct 31, 2017

Dr. Strangemill said:
Universal? Plain? Light type? Those are the questions...

PLAIN - Light type came WAY later. Universal has "swivel-able" two piece saddle - to enable helical/spiral milling via Dividing Head geared to table screw. The FIRST mill (and the first knee and column mill) these folks made was thus - in 1859

If you stand around the machine talking about this axis and that axis, it will think you are from Mars - since there was NO SUCH THING in its working life

Add 1909 link. #2 Plain on pages 28 and 29. Looks identical in 1917 catalog

Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co. - Publication Reprints - Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co., Machinery and Tools | VintageMachinery.org

Dr. Strangemill · Oct 31, 2017

Ha! very true indeed on talking about axis.

Interesting link. I have to compare it with mine when I get the chance. Very close from what I can tell. 1909-1917 very possible. This also adds up to some crude math given the age of the second owner.

I think the telltale will be that bell on the longitudinal run, unless it was a common thing. I have never seen something like that before.

There is a different casting on the side of the axle with a gear at the back. You can see it in the pic below. This may also help identify it.

99Panhard · Oct 31, 2017

Looking at my 1913 catalog, I think it is a regular #2 plain mill but it has had a lot of stuff added to it. The vertical head is obvious, but also the entire belt drive mechanism on the right side and the attached motor. Also, I think that the rod that runs along the front of the table was added, perhaps some sort of stop mechanism. The patent dates given are 1899, 1900, 1903 and 1905 but these only cover features of the machine - not the machine itself. The patent dates should be on the column somewhere but may have been on a plate since removed. Generally patent dates are not very useful except to say that it cannot pre-date the latest date. That said, in the 1913 catalog the table height is adjusted by a hand wheel rather than a removable crank handle. Based on a very early B&S mill I once had, I believe that is an earlier feature so I'd say before 1913.

In the 1893 catalog, the #2 had automatic longitudinal feed only (no hand wheel), driven by a 3-step pulley that ran off the spindle at the rear of the machine. It did have a removable crank, like your machine to elevate the table.

I've never heard of a bell on a B&S machine. It certainly isn't mentioned in their catalogs. I think that was someone's idea and added it.

jhruska · Oct 31, 2017

The spindle low gear (bull gear) is mounted outboard on the right side of the spindle. 1909-1917 the low gear set was built in directly below the spindle within the casting.
The overarm clamp is different for 1902. The same as yours for 1907.
The table mounted bar is not original to the mill. Added on but if it works keep it.
Where is the table hand wheel for the right side? It should be two speed.
Your mill is likely ~1907 vintage and described as a No2 Plain horizontal mill with a drawbar to seat toolholders.
Too much in the way of a right side view to see the feed mechanisms.

John

Could be early as 99Panhard suggests ie no hand wheel for the table and a hand crank.
Photos do not show the whole mill details.

Dr. Strangemill · Nov 1, 2017

Wow, great info everyone. Yes, the bull gear is offthe right side of the spindle. How does that work?

The mill is only longitudinal feed, like 99Panhard suggests.

Yes, the bar on the table is probably added on, as well as the whole side assembly. The motor was put on by the last owner but never connected. He was only using the vertical mill. The new motor came off of a cooling system and is 10 horses strong. Overkill?

Here is a picture of the back wheels.

99Panhard · Nov 1, 2017

10 hp is overkill though I don't know if could do any damage... I rather doubt it. The real limiting factor is belt slip. Looking at your back view, you also have the earliest speed change setup for the table. So, the real question was "when were the back gears added?"

Dr. Strangemill · Nov 1, 2017

So we are looking for a year(s) the casting included the Back Gear(s) outboard the spindle and the style of Feed Change gears on the back.

L Vanice · Nov 1, 2017

That motor looks kind of small to be 10 HP. Maybe the plate, which must be difficult to see, says 1.0 HP. I say difficult to see because the motor is near the floor and near other parts.

Larry

johnoder · Nov 1, 2017

Nomenclature help

BACK GEARS relate to spindle and are the large upper jobs that you can plainly see the teeth on

The FEED CHANGES on this mill are via the cone pulleys and belt on the back

Dr. Strangemill · Nov 2, 2017

Thanks John.

Larry, the motor on the vertical mill is a 1/2hp. The motor mounted on the side bracket (not clearly seen in pics) is the hefty 10hp motor.

Here is a pic of the 1909 catalog. The 2Y listed here is very similar to mine, with the difference being the handwheel for transverse movement. Mine has the hand crank as mentioned before.

So far, a possible date range of 1893-1907. Does anyone know or have a catalog between these dates? I feel we are narrowing it down.

jhruska · Nov 2, 2017

It is not prior to 1902. The overarm on your mill is straight, no goose neck. I still think yours is about 1907 w/r/t the overarm clamp setup.
Could use photos showing details of the table front and the feed mechanism right side.

There were two table feed options with this mill and others such as #1 #3.
The mill could be purchased with Rack or Screw feed.
Attached are cuts from the 1896 catalog of a #2 mill, and feed tables. These feed tables apply to your mill.
B&S applied similar features across all the machines. The hand wheel and feed trip layout
was carried into at least the 1940's.

Rack or screw feed options were still available in the early 1900's.
Table traverse for your mill should be the upper square drive on the front plate.

Here is the 1902 with screw drive and the handwheel at the right end of the table.

John

comstockfriend · Nov 3, 2017

If you want to use the Rusnok head in the vertical mode, it's a PITA the way it's mounted now. A simple adapter would allow it to be used off the end of the overarm centered over the table. Then you can work facing the mill.

This is the Rusnok Model 70 I got on my Diamond 22M

John

Dr. Strangemill · Nov 5, 2017

Finally picked up the No. 2 yesterday. Rolled it outside and got some good pictures before lifting onto the trailer. Here are closeups of the feed drive, and all around shots in more detail. Serial numbers match on the main casting and overarm bracket. Hopefully this will get a closer date range.

Table and feed details:

Brown & Sharpe No 2 info please

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Stainless

Titanium

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