Barnes 4 1/2

I'm finally getting around to restore my Barnes #4 1/2 screw machine. I'm new to this forum so when I searched for threads related to restoring similar machines I didn't find much. Any help or tips would be much appreciated. thx

The lathe is very complete (I think), but there are two small repairs. The bracket (not sure of the name) that holds the change gears has been broken and brazed back together. Fortunatley they did a pretty good job. Also the "socket" that the seat sets in was also broken and brazed.

Some of the parts are black but the main parts of the machine are a light gray. I thought black was a standard color, were there any gray production models?

On the OWWM board is a picture of a gray #4. I don't know if the color is original or not.
VintageMachinery.org - Photo Index - W. F. & John Barnes Co. - Nr 4 type 3

I'm still working on my #4 (a much smaller machine of basically the same design and time period.) I found a tiny unrusted spot of tan over the rubber-black on the bed and a streak of red on the headstock. It might have been a bit of spilled house paint or they very well may have gone "two tone" at some point. A friend just sold his red 4 1/2. I believe that most of the paint was original.

Did yours come with the pedals (or treadle) and flywheel? They were, unfortunately, often discarded. The seat should have a thin post and foot under it. Use without it or use on the soft ground of a chicken coop could have contributed to the break. Check the bottom of the seat for a socket if the post is missing.

Here's a link to the 1912 Barnes catalog. The #4 1/2 is on page 4 and 5: Barnes Lathes

You may want to retry or narrow your search here. There have been quite a few threads on the Barnes 4 1/2.

P.S. Joe in NH will probably be along shortly to explain about the chicken coop

Thanks for the plug. It's a kind of a joke: ALL Barnes lathes, particularly the 4-1/2 are found (and naturally habitate) a chicken coop. This seems to attest to their primarily agricultural and non-grid connected original purchaser.

I think because of this, the Barnes lathes suffer from a bit of bad press in being pictured as something less than accurate - a "farmers" lathe. Nothing could be further from the truth - although I will allow that somehow Barnes doesn't have the cachet that a Pratt & Whitney, Brown & Sharpe, or even most of the other "toolmaker" lathes has. It does exceed the Goodell-Pratt in cachet, however, with the possible exception of the treadle table version of GP.

I will admit that my No. 5 came out of a chicken coop in Rhode Island. I have yet to build a chicken coop in Cow Hampshire to keep it in, however.

Among the "survivalist" crowd, the barnes metal lathe is held in high esteem. I think it is considered THE tool to convert all our guns back into pruning hooks and plowshares -after TPTB (the powers that be) drop the big one.

As to colors of the barnes metal lathes, they vary. NOT usually pinstriped which I'm convinced is a large part of the attraction (and value) of the velocipede woodworking lathes (which outsell the metal lathes pricewise 3 to 1.) I've seen metal lathes in white (in a hospital) and green (in my shop) and black (in my shop and probably the most popular color) and later ones tend to be grey. Early ones have regular slotted screws: later ones use allen headed screws (which came into use about 1908 which was the introduction of allen screws.)

If you have the pedalworks, either treadle or velocipede, count yourself lucky. My 4-1/2 does not, but the 5 does.

Joe

In my experience, the most commonly found color is black. However, I have seen them in gray (ligher & darker) as well as brown and some very early ones in green. Think the lighter gray is simply dark gray that has faded.

Paint has a tendency to fade when exposed to sunlight so looking for places that were not exposed such as where two parts are bolted together our up under and between things might lead to a better approximation of the proper color.

I have seen a fairly large number of Barnes metal lathes from the cute little #4 to the massive #6 (both velociped, true treadle and bench/line shaft models) and have seen no indication that any of there metal lathes ever had any pin striping so getting that done should not come into play.

As Joe pointed out, most are missing parts and pieces. Your "opportunities" both sound manageable. Change gears, steady rests, wood turning attachments, etc., as well as the foot powered parts are ususlaly missing. Might be able to help with change gears and steady rest and hope to have the wood turning attachment reproduced at some time.

The #3 wood lathe as Joe mentioned is very highly decorated and is a real beauty. She works great and is a pleasure to operate. Just got a good video camera and hope to get some good videos of a lot of the Barnes machinery running something later this spring.

The Barnes line of metal lathes seems to be a little lighter in build especially when compared to Seneca Falls and Reed. Yes, you will find them in a lot of places and for some reason, they tend to show up in chicken coops, barns and outbuilding more than inside a shop. Never know.

With their wood working machines, Barnes assembled them and then painted. I have been able to find some great paint runs and have what I think are good color matches for the Barnes gray and "burnt red" colors. (Never heard of a burnt red metal lathe.) Have had great success with using Benjeman Moore IronClad paint. The water based seems to work just as well as the oil base and drives very quickly. If you want that paint color mix, let me know.

For some additional information on foot powered machinery, see my website at Foot Powered Machinery Yes, a work in process with mostly info today of the Barnes scroll saw and former. Hope to get more out there especially on the Barnes lathes. Have a couple of #3's under restoration and that should help.

Have a Barnes #6, early gear drive metal lathe coming. It has a 7 foot bed and 6, yes six, pedals between the legs. A watch makers lathe, I think he called it.

Good luck with your restoration.

Thanks Ed

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the help. I'd be real interested in the Barnes Gray mix since that seems to be the primary color of my lathe.

I must have gotten lucky when I bought this lathe because I have the pedals, crank, flywheel, tail stock, steady rest, 8" face plate and the little "X" lathe dog plate. It even has the little caps that cover the oil holes for the spindle. Which brings up a question, was anything on this lathe nickle plated? The little covers and crank handles are pretty rusted, I wondered if they were painted or plated. If painted any idea of color?

Can you tell me if the tapers are standard Morse #1 or are they special? They look a little long and thin.

The pedals look like they are two parts, but how do you remove them from the crank? I can't find screws, there does seem to be some type of rivet in a couple of the corners. Or perhaps it's screw that have been worn down?

Do you have a precautions before I remove the apron? Are there any springs and ball bearings that will fly of into parts unkown when I remove it?

My plan is to use a paint stripper to clean off all the paint and then repaint. If that's not a wise idea please let me know. I'd rather not sandblast unless I have to.

Do you know if there are any manual reproductions available? It seems to be a pretty straight forward lathe, but it would be nice to have a manual. I do have an 1891 Catalogue #3 from Machinists Supply Co in Chicago. It lists many Barnes machines and has pricing and some options. It's pretty neat, the 4 1/2 cost $70.00 back then.

I'd include a picture, but I can't seem to figure out how to insert a pix in the text?

Bob

The pedals are riveted together in (I believe) 4 places. You have to grind off the tops of the rivets and separate the pieces. Be careful as you use a punch to remove the rivet as you can break the cast iron - a braze repair is possible and when painted no one will know the difference.

I would stay totally away from sandblasting if at all possible. Maybe use glass beads on the legs but go at machined surfaces lightly if at all. Paint stripper works, even in this post EPA world. Expect the amount of elbow grease to be inverse to the price paid for the stripper.

Electrolytic rust removal has been written up a lot on the Internet. This has a lot to recommend it - but it's best to follow up with phosphate treatment afterwards. There is a product sold at Home Depot called Kleen Strip Prep & Etch which is phosporic acid based and works well for this. About $14 for a gallon jug. A spray bottle works well. You don't need to use much. Phosphates basically delay the onset of flash rusting a bit and give you a chance to get some paint or oil onto the surface before the inevitable happens.

Joe

The Barnes gray color mix for the Benjamin Moore IronClad latex paint is Deep Base 363 3B with the following added OY-4, BK 2X4, OG-3

They also sell just a basis black that would be another choice.

The gray is what I describe as a traditional darker gray. Looks very much like early Crescent machines.

As Joe pointed out, be VERY, VERY careful in working with the pedals. Know somebody that use to restore these and he finally went to using a bolt to screw them together and then grind off the head as he broke so many trying to rivet them over.

If it were me (and I have restored a few Barnes machies and not it was not me above), I would not try and take them off. Just clean and paint as well as you can. After all, that is the foot powered parts.

As I remember, there are no springs that pop out on the Barnes 4 1/2 but as always, be careful and make some notes or better yet, take a few pictures. Might be nice to post a restore here. Know I should. Never seen an exploded parts diagram for one. Not even sure they had such a thing back then. Think they expected everyone to be mechanical enough to put things back together without a manual.

On the manual, I have never seen one nor heard of one. There are Barnes lathe catalogs that show all the lathes Barnes produced and give a sales pitch along with listing accessories such as chucks, cutting tools, etc. Think they felt you should know how to run a lathe or get one of the Audels or other early machinist guides.

I plan to get some copies made of these lathe only catalogs sometime in the near future.

I have used paint strippers and also just a wire brush on a drill. That might seem harsh but most of the castings are somewhat rough and I can't seem to tell the difference. Yes, the dust probably contains all kind of bad things that one day after doing 4000 of them I might become more forgetful than I am at 65 anyhow.

PM if you have anymore questions.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Ed

PS.. Did you get the change gears to go with the lathe?

Here is a pix of my lathe. I still can't figure out how to insert the picture into the body of the message. Any help?

Bob
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