Cincinnati 42" all steel shaper

I just saw this brochure sell on eBay.
Wondering if anybody has seen one of these shapers in person.
Or even a photo of one other than the factory ones.* VINTAGE 42" CINCINNATI ALL STEEL SHAPER BROCHURE * | eBay

"Chips" or "Shrapnel?"

This was definitely one of those shapers whose chips "clang" when they hit the floor!

Don't get hit! They're hot and sharp!

JRR

That is an amazing concept in shaper design, and it is obvious as to how much more rigid the ram would be with the "triangular prism" cross section. A whole different concept in how the ram is "restrained" against uplift, and probably an exponential increase in bearing surface area on the ram guides.

I would like to learn more about this particular design of shaper. It represents a radical departure from the dovetail ram guides which just about every other shaper builder used. The all-steel designation also interests me. I wonder if Cincinnati used weldments for parts like the mainframe, or whether it was a switch to all-steel castings. The other question is whether Cincinnati used the traditional bull gear with slotted link to drive the ram, or whether they went to a hydraulic ram drive.

The "V" superimposed on the Cincinnati emblem on the brochure cover has me wondering if this was a World War II development. Could it have been that Cincinnati was building a very heavy duty shaper for high production due to the war effort ? Going to weldments or steel castings saved materials (as opposed to iron castings which would need a lot more iron to equal the strength of steel), and going to a hydraulic drive might make for faster manufacturing of the shapers. In wartime, though, it would seem all the hydraulics being built would be going to the war effort.

This post with the brochure cover for the "all steel shaper" is the first knowledge I have of its existence. It apparently was not something built in large numbers, and I imagine very few of these shapers were actually built and placed in use. Could it also have been a case of this "all steel shaper" coming into being at the tail end of any real shaper usage in US shops and factories ?

Just thinking of how the mainframe with that female triangular guide for the ram was made is a bit of a brain teaser. Making a cored casting was the easy part. Finishing the inside of the ram guide surfaces was likely done on a specialized shaper or planer. I imagine replaceable and adjustable "pads" were possibly hardened and ground for the ram to ride and bear against. These pads must have had a transverse keyway and massive thrust key to transfer the reaction to the ram thrust into the frame of the shaper. I would also imagine Cincinnati had a high pressure lubrication system pushing lube oil out of drillings on the bearing pads. With that kind of design, the Cincinnati all steel shaper must have been an absolute bear of a machine, able to peel off a lot of metal in a hurry. Too bad more of them were not made.

We had a 24" Rockford Hy-Draulic shaper at the powerplant (it was donated to our railroad and now sits awaiting placement in a shop, which is on "hold"). In service, the Rockford Hy Draulic shaper was a bear in its own right. Most of the men were intimidated by it. Being a powerplant shop, any of the machine tools saw only occasional use, unlike a working machine shop or production shop. When we did use the Rockford Hy Draulic shaper, it peeled off the steel and took a heavy chip without breathing hard. We used it to machine welded parts, and it peeled through weld cover passes and base metal easily. Taking over 0.100" at a rip with a round nose tool was no problem. Mostly, we used it to bevel heavy steel plate for weld test coupons. It could bevel the edge of a piece of 1" or 2" (depending on weld procedure) A-36 structural steel like nothing else we had in the shop.

I think the shapers, while falling into disuse, if not being totally obsolete, are one of the most under-rated machine tools these days. I always like the shapers because I could grind and re-grind a tool as needed, with little or no chance of burning it up if I took a hogging cut. With a round nose tool, a shaper had not problem delivering a fine surface finish. I ran some "shoes" for a locomotive on the Rockford Hy Draulic shaper some years ago. These are cast steel shoes which fit in the "pedestals" on the frame of the locomotive and slide up and down as the driving axle "main brasses" move up and down with the axle. Over time, between side rod thrust and this up and down motion from normal action of the springs and equalizers, the sides of these shoes get heavily worn. The shoes are cast steel. We had reached the point of having to do something with the shoes on a rod-connected diesel locomotive. We preheated the shoes in a wood fire, and my buddy and I built them up with E 7018 electrode, putting a LOT of weld on them to get up past the "saddled" worn areas. We put the shoes back in the fire and let them slow cool. After cleaning, I remachined them on the Rockford shaper. The shaper was the best show in town for that job. It did not blink or lay down on me, just peeled through the built-up welds to get things back to correct dimensions. I kept cranking on heavier cuts to see when the shaper would start to let me know I was pushing things. Never happened.

I had machined shoes for another locomotive on a vertical mill with an indexable carbide face mill cutter. I found the shaper to be the more solid machine and it cost a whole lot less for a HSS toolbit than the inserts for the face mill cutter. I think Cincinnati, had they come out with their "all steel" shaper some years earlier, might well have hit one out of the park. Maybe it was a good idea too late in coming. I'd like to have seen one of those "all steel shapers".

The shop where I worked at in the 80s had a 36"Steptoe that we accuired as scrap off of a US Navy ship. It was locked 7p where the compound had been overhung and contacted the main frame at the end of the stroke. It really wasn't damaged that badly, and we were able to get it in working order. It was a beast. I remember it ripping off steel 1/4" DOC and 1/16" Feed per stroke. And was still able to produce a fine broadnose finish with a 3/4" wide piece of rex AAA just removing .002" -.005"DOC. As I recall we had to feed the table by hand to get enough feed for that, so the stroke speed needed to be slow enough for you to keek up with it.

I can understand if whomever bought the brochure doesn't want to let people see for free what he paid good money for.
But it would be cool if he is on this forum that he might share some information and a photo or two.

I believe there is nothing to beat a shaper or planer , Both of these machines in the late 60/s over here rapidly fell out of favour with many production engineers who did not like the "wasted time on the return stroke" , I find even with my little hand powered planer I can get a better finish than with a milling machine, O.K. I am working on teeny weeny little things. I at one time was taken round a British coal board maintenance shop which had a big Rockford Hydraulic planer the cuts it could take were awesome, Another machine which springs to mind and I was extremely saddened when the last of its kind was scrapped with the closing of the shipyard engine works of Fleming & Ferguson of Paisley Scotland , was a big Wall Slotting Machine , which this firm used to machine marine engine bedplates (The last pair of big triple expansion steam engines for a pair of steam bucket dredgers left their works in or about 1982/ (I cannot remember the exact year now).

To see this huge tool planing out the deep housings for the square pattern bearing blocks was poetry in motion, As was the profiling of the big "figure of eight pattern crank webs" The most fascinating feature was the drive to the saddle & tool block, driven in the upwards & downwards motion by a big leadscrew, in the middle of the vertical bed affixed to a huge cast shop column, The drive like the old planers was by a fast & loose pulley system,

The whole concept of this machine tool whose ancestor which was designed and dreamed up by a Scottish engineer William Murdock , who was the works manager of the James Watt Company, & shown inillustrations of Soho Foundry , Murdock is a vastly under-rated and forgotten pioneer of machine tools , Yes shapers & planers are poweful and adaptable machine tools.

rustytool said:

I can understand if whomever bought the brochure doesn't want to let people see for free what he paid good money for.
But it would be cool if he is on this forum that he might share some information and a photo or two.

Click to expand...

I had my bid at 120$ but somehow someone wanted it more than me. I was going to get it scanned and send the scans to Tony. I asked the seller if he could take some quick pictures of it before he sends it off. Though he hasn't responded so he probably didn't, as last time I asked him a question he answered quickly. I did end up with a brochure showing someone scraping a P&W supermicrometer bed.

That guy who won, had a LOT higher price he was willing to pay, as I started bidding again from 70 some dollars all the way up to 120.

Hopefully's he shares it. There is a photo of a catalog showing it on PM can't remember the thread. My brother saved the photo awhile ago and he sent me it. Here it is:

rustytool said:

I can understand if whomever bought the brochure doesn't want to let people see for free what he paid good money for.
But it would be cool if he is on this forum that he might share some information and a photo or two.

Click to expand...

I've bought a few brochures to specifically scan and post on VintageMachinery.org. Best to share info.

Definitely a case of Cincinnati trying to "think outside the box"..............I really wonder if they really ever made it into production in any number?
I was at an auction some years ago, there was wagon loads of manuals and brochures of farm equipment.......they sold a small brochure of a tractor that was never built............it brought 60 dollars as I recall. It was a tractor dealership that spanned many years, even had a complete blacksmith shop in back.

Very interesting Shaper. May be this size Shaper was competing with smaller openside Planers that could get more work done with the same HP and was never able to compete effectively? There may be one somewhere. Hopefully we might just see it here. I have a 1956 24 in. G&E and it commands respect and attention when throwing hot chips. Turn your head and have a blue hot chip go down the front of your shirt and you will learn some new dance moves akin to a stripper.

Is this the cincinnati that became the fab equipment builder? If so wonder if an email might return some info form the depths of the corporate files?

If it is the one that became milicron and eventually fives did they keep all the old corporate records? Or donate to some museum? Or...... dumpster.

Mebfab said:

Is this the cincinnati that became the fab equipment builder? If so wonder if an email might return some info form the depths of the corporate files?

If it is the one that became milicron and eventually fives did they keep all the old corporate records? Or donate to some museum? Or...... dumpster.

Click to expand...

Cincinnati Milacron grew out of the Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. I think the fab equipment came from Cincinnati Punch & Shear Co., but not entirely sure how long they were in operation.

The shaper was made by the Cincinnati Shaper Co.

Andy

I'm inclined to think the price would have likely been a deal breaker, but what a fabulous machine to have in captivity.............my shaper fettish is showing.
I have a 30 inch mechanical, it hasn't had all that much use from what I can tell......not sure if that is typical. The 16-24 inch size, all seem to be used quite a bit and seem to me to be the most "useful", in their day, production wise anyway.
My little A**** cut a lot of keyways................when it is all I had to use, so it was pretty useful.

IIRC we had a thread on that machine already, nobody had actual pictures of it and there were supposedly only a very few made.

They had no toolslide for cutting angles, but would cut a few different angles by power feeding the table in both directions at the same time. Thus the lack of outboard table support.

ETA: here it was
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...k-ideas-stories-152439/index3.html#post840295
maybe more info from there on, didn't fully read through the whole thread afterwords.

Interesting.... that is within 4 bucks of this same shaper brochure from a few years ago


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...aper-4-page-brochure-went-128-05-ebay-267260/

Brochure scan

Here is the complete brochure. No, I did not buy the one on Ebay but found I had access to one so thought I would scan and share. The foreshortening in the picture doesn't do it justice. That thing is 13'5" long! The power angle feed would be handy and probably contributed to the lack of outboard support. Enjoy.

ES Butler:

Thank you for posting the Cincinnati shaper brochure. Reading through it, I got all my questions answered. Cincinnati did use a welded steel frame, fully stress relieved. The ram was spec'd as Corten steel. My only familiarity with Corten was for outdoor structural applications. Corten is mainly used as a "weathering" steel in that it develops a layer of surface rust, and then no further corrosion occurs. I will have to read up on Corten to find out what the advantage was in using it for the ram on this shaper.

The drive for the ram is quite interesting. Where I had thought Cincinnati used hydraulics, they use a power feed screw and bronze nut, screw being nitralloy steel to get a high surface hardness. A gear transmission is used to change ram speed, but a constant speed (and quite rapid) return stroke is mentioned, as are the types of clutches used in the transmission.

The machine, if it ever was built and put into use in working shops, had to have been an absolute bear. In the days before programmable VFD drives, I wonder how (or if) Cincinnati had any sort of controlled acceleration and deceleration for the ram on the return stroke, or whether the clutches were simply "feathered" automatically.
More intriguing is Cincinnati's statement that energy is recovered on the return stroke. How this was accomplished on a screw feed ram would be quite an interesting piece of design. Possibly, the ram feed screw had multiple leads, so force applied to the nut might turn the screw instead of the other way round. With that idea, maybe Cincinnati used some sort of regenerative braking. However, they give a "recommended" motor size of 20 HP, and no mention of any specific electrical requirements, so the idea of regenerative braking may be wild thinking on my part.

However, if Cincinnati Shaper was the same Cincinnati who built the "Hypro" planers, they would be no strangers to reversible motor drives and circuitry to electrically decelerate a planer table. The "Hypro" planers used a DC motor drive, while this shaper used a 20 HP 1800 rpm motor- with voltage and phase determined by the purchaser's on-site power. On that same vein, Cincinnati Shaper, whether they also built the Hypro planers or not, likely had little or no experience with hydraulic power for shaper rams. This may be why they went with the geared screw drive for the ram. In my opinion, making a geared screw drive and the transmission to drive it, seems like a lot more work than using standardized industrial hydraulics. Rockford used Vickers hydraulics for their shapers and planers, and changing cutting speed is a matter of turning a knurled knob on a metering valve. Ends of strokes and decelerating the ram is taken care of by cushioning valves and orifices, and setting stroke length is a matter of moving trippers along the side of the ram. By the time Cincinnati was marketing this all-steel shaper, industrial hydraulic were a well developed thing. Why Cincinnati went about driving and returning the ram in what would seem to be a more difficult method is another one of those questions we will never know. Possibly, aside from their wanting to stick with what they knew, Vickers may have had some sort of exclusive agreement with Rockford whereby they could not design and furnish hydraulic drives to competing machine tool builders.

As the saying goes, things get "curiouser and curiouser", having read through the brochure.

Joe Michaels said:

ES Butler:

Thank you for posting the Cincinnati shaper brochure. Reading through it, I got all my questions answered. Cincinnati did use a welded steel frame, fully stress relieved. The ram was spec'd as Corten steel. My only familiarity with Corten was for outdoor structural applications. Corten is mainly used as a "weathering" steel in that it develops a layer of surface rust, and then no further corrosion occurs. I will have to read up on Corten to find out what the advantage was in using it for the ram on this shaper.

The drive for the ram is quite interesting. Where I had thought Cincinnati used hydraulics, they use a power feed screw and bronze nut, screw being nitralloy steel to get a high surface hardness. A gear transmission is used to change ram speed, but a constant speed (and quite rapid) return stroke is mentioned, as are the types of clutches used in the transmission.

The machine, if it ever was built and put into use in working shops, had to have been an absolute bear. In the days before programmable VFD drives, I wonder how (or if) Cincinnati had any sort of controlled acceleration and deceleration for the ram on the return stroke, or whether the clutches were simply "feathered" automatically.
More intriguing is Cincinnati's statement that energy is recovered on the return stroke. How this was accomplished on a screw feed ram would be quite an interesting piece of design. Possibly, the ram feed screw had multiple leads, so force applied to the nut might turn the screw instead of the other way round. With that idea, maybe Cincinnati used some sort of regenerative braking. However, they give a "recommended" motor size of 20 HP, and no mention of any specific electrical requirements, so the idea of regenerative braking may be wild thinking on my part.

However, if Cincinnati Shaper was the same Cincinnati who built the "Hypro" planers, they would be no strangers to reversible motor drives and circuitry to electrically decelerate a planer table. The "Hypro" planers used a DC motor drive, while this shaper used a 20 HP 1800 rpm motor- with voltage and phase determined by the purchaser's on-site power. On that same vein, Cincinnati Shaper, whether they also built the Hypro planers or not, likely had little or no experience with hydraulic power for shaper rams. This may be why they went with the geared screw drive for the ram. In my opinion, making a geared screw drive and the transmission to drive it, seems like a lot more work than using standardized industrial hydraulics. Rockford used Vickers hydraulics for their shapers and planers, and changing cutting speed is a matter of turning a knurled knob on a metering valve. Ends of strokes and decelerating the ram is taken care of by cushioning valves and orifices, and setting stroke length is a matter of moving trippers along the side of the ram. By the time Cincinnati was marketing this all-steel shaper, industrial hydraulic were a well developed thing. Why Cincinnati went about driving and returning the ram in what would seem to be a more difficult method is another one of those questions we will never know. Possibly, aside from their wanting to stick with what they knew, Vickers may have had some sort of exclusive agreement with Rockford whereby they could not design and furnish hydraulic drives to competing machine tool builders.

As the saying goes, things get "curiouser and curiouser", having read through the brochure.

Click to expand...

I agree regarding your views on the hydraulic v screw and nut drives Joe. That's a very impressive machine but the choice of drive smacks of being different for the sake of being different.

Regards Tyrone.

I'll take a different angle on the construction.

I would bet that Cincinnati built one or two machines as a prototype and then made up some literature to see if there was any market for it. The welded steel construction was probably much less about strength, and far more about a quick and cheap way to build a hand full of machines. It's much less expensive to weld up some plate than to make patterns and have a huge casting poured.

The same may be true for the screw actuated ram. Rather than engineer a costly hydraulic system with valves and rams and what not, they may have just borrowed a standard gear box from some other machine and rigged up a simple proof of concept.

I really wonder about the viability of this machine, even in the glory days of shapers. The table/box looks pretty small compared to a planer, so work holding must be a real challenge.

I understand that two of those very unique Cincinnati 42 inch shapers were built for the 1955 machine tool show and were officially known as the XM-1. Unfortunately, no one seems to know the final disposition of either machine.

The late Art Volz, of Volz Mechatronic in Houston, and I corresponded in 2005 regarding the almost mythical XM-1 Cincinnati shaper. Art sent me the patent information: 2,944,468 which was granted in July 12, 1960.

I have a friend, who was a University of Cincinnati engineering co-op at Cincinnati Shapers in 1956, and actually operated one of the XM-1 shapers. As he recalls, his task was to shape the skirt profile on the bottom of diesel engine pistons. The pistons were fixtured top down and four in-line on the table. A hydraulic tracer unit controlled the machine axes to produce the skirt shape. He recalls that the shaper was very fast and the brochure confirms this, stating that the ram could move up to 300 strokes per minute or 400 feet per minute.

Cincinnati Shapers became Cincinnati Incorporated, today a manufacturer of press brakes, shears and powdered metal compacting presses. Cincinnati Shapers was originally located in the Camp Washington suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio and their property abutted the Lodge & Shipley machine tool company.

Circa 1952~1953, Cincinnati Shapers relocated west of Cincinnati proper into a new facility at Whitewater Township, near Harrison, Ohio. The old Cincinnati Shapers facility then became the Lodge & Shipley south shop.

Cincinnati Shapers/Cincinnati Incorporated had no relationship to Cincinnati Planers.

The Cincinnati Shapers logo is called "The Winged Victory of Samothrace."
The current Cincinnati Inc. folks do not know how or why it was chosen as the company logo.

Mike