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03-23-2006, 02:05 PM #1
I have a couple of questions regarding a Cincinnati Tool Master vertical mill that I recently purchased. It is almost the same size as a Bridgeport mill but with a shorter table. My first question is where did Cincinnati stamp their model number or serial number? I have looked on the head and on the base but I can’t find any numbers like on my Bridgeport. I would also like to find a repair manual for the machine, does anyone sell reprints of the old manuals/ parts lists. The mill is in very good shape and must have been used in a tool shop, as it has the original paint and doesn’t have a lot of blemishes. I know there is an old version of this machine with a non standard spindle taper. I believe this is a newer version as it has a variable speed head, power feeds on X and Y and a self contained coolant system. That leads me to my next question. How do you release the tool holder. It looks like there is a slot for a 3” thin wrench and vertical slot for a large spanner wrench below it on the bottom of the spindle. Currently there is what looks to be a BT 40 tool holder in the spindle. There is no drawbar nor is there a hole in the top of the head like a Bridgeport. I am familiar with BT 40 tooling and I am assuming there is a retention knob on the top of the tool holder, and the wrench slots on the bottom of the spindle are a type of quick change system. But I would like to verify that before I start making wrenches.
03-23-2006, 07:30 PM #2
They did make Toolmasters with 40 taper spindles but those should have drawbars. My toolmaster uses the monoset collets which are tightened with a thin wrench using the nut on the spindle nose, hence no hole through the head. I don't think its 3 inch though, something like 2 5/8. If you post a picture I'm sure someone will recognize it.
03-24-2006, 04:03 PM #3
Does it look anything like this?
I got my manual from here
I bought r) Cincinnati Toolmaster Service Manual.
Its a scan with very few finger prints. for $15 I thought it was a great deal.
03-24-2006, 09:10 PM #4
There should be a locking pin to hold the spindle while you use the wrench. Look behind the spindle and you should see the lock. It engages in the holes around the spindle, just don't forget to release the pin before you turn on the power. Don't ask me how I know this.
03-26-2006, 10:09 PM #5
The serial number is on the column of the machine. I already had the parts and service manual for one I bought, but the operating manual that is listed at the website is for the head only. If anyone has the operating manual for the knee and column, (listed as M1951) let me know, I would like a copy. I haven't used the one I bought,so I don't know much about them, it is at my dad's place. Thanks
03-27-2006, 05:53 PM #6
I would like to thank all of you for your help and for answering my questions so quickly.
I took some time but looked the mill over and I did find a number under the saddle ways, it is 6J4V5K. This toolmaster does not look like the one in the photos that were sent. It is gray with large gearbox style power feeds on the X and Y although it does have the same style of base casting. It looks like a Bridgeport but 1/3 bigger all around The other difference I noticed is that the spindle motor on mine is set back like a Bridgeport. Where the one in the photo looks like the motor is more forward. The head on this mill is also a lot wider and there is a quill power feed on the LT side. Directly on top is the power switch and a variable speed dial with a max speed of 3800.
I also looked for a pin to lock the spindle but I couldn’t fine one anywhere. I did find markings on the tool holder though after I cleaned the grease off it. The holder is a
1 ¼ x 40 made by Putnam Tool. So it is a 40 taper. But there is no type of drawbar to push it out. Above the spindle is a big aluminum housing with the variable speed dial. I am going to borrow a digital camera so I can take some pictures to show you.
I looked on the Net to find a picture of a similar mill but I was only able to find pics. of the large fixed head style Cincinnati mills and the Bridgeport style with a smaller rounded head.
05-04-2006, 12:46 PM #7
Well I’m finally back, this time with links to photos of the mill. I couldn't get them to show up as links though. So you have to cut and paste them into the address bar. I had to use links because my internet connection is too slow to upload the photos and I had a friend post these pics.
These first two pics are of the machine
The next three are of the spindle and the tool holder that is in the machine now
It seems to be froze in but you can see the marking on the tool holder stating that it is a 40 taper.
The last two are of the forward and reverse switch and the top of the machine
The knob above the switch was originally froze. I have found that you can shove it in and
It has a fork ( under the top cover )that slides onto 2 flats on what I would call a draw bar, and locks the spindle. But the draw bar does not stick up above the top of the machine nor does it have a hex to put a wrench on. I didn’t see it at first because there was tape over the hole and the top of the machine had a 1/4 “ of grease and dirt on it. It rides in a bearing at the top so it doesn’t work like a kicker bar in a Bridgeport.
If you have any Ideas on getting the tool holder out I would appreciate it.
I have used a large spanner wrench to try and turn the tool holder and spindle with the draw bar locked and it doesn’t move at all.
I have soaked it in WD40 and it doesn’t budge either.
I don’t think it is jammed I just think it has been in way too long. But before I start putting a lot of pressure on it I would like to make sure I am doing the right
Thing to start with.
05-04-2006, 05:20 PM #8
Your Toolmaster is a 1D model (variable spped spindle with powerfeed on the quill) and powerfeed on the table. The top of the ram or overram is rounded, so it's it could be an earlier model, but I see in the 2nd photo that there are two lock screws which clamp the knee to the column dovetail, so it's likely a transitional model; late 50s~early 60s I think.
The serial number is stamped into the face of the column's dovetail, right at the very top edge. It will be a number like 6J2V5S-18, for instance. Rub some chalk on the column face and it may highlight the stamped numbers.
The push pull knob over the RH/STOP/LH switch locks the drawbar from rotating. The quill must be completely retracted into the spindle housing. Shift the HIGH/LOW lever on the LH side of the head into neutral and with the proper wrench rotate the spindle 2-3 turns. On my Toolmaster, I rap the end of the drawbar 2 or 3 times with a brass hammer and the toolholder releases from the spindle. A few of teh drawbar threads remain engaged, so the tool will not fall out. Rotate the tool by hand a few turms to release it from the remaining threads.
I suspect the upper end of your drawbar may be missing a bit of length. Perhaps if you pull the push/pull knob all the way out, unclamp the quill then retract if fully into the housing before pushing the push/pull knob back in the end of the drawbar may reappear.
Regadless, you must rap on the end of the drawbar to release the stuck toolholder.
05-04-2006, 05:32 PM #9
Well that is the same machine that I have. I guess by reading your post you don't have the manual. I will be home on the 11th of May so if you may want a scan or two of a page let me know.
My machine looks basically like yours here's a link to picture of it (for some reason my computer won't let me post it now) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../ca0830f8.jpg. However the one thing my toolmaster is missing is that fork you describe. I haven't seen what you have done, but I've taken apart my mill. On mine when I withdraw the spindle all the way up, the top of the drawbar on mine protrudes about 1/2inch from the hole at the top and is enough to get my wrench around. However I rarely change tools as I have an ER40 collet holder.
None the less here's my advice, I don't know what you have or haven't tried yet you seem to be hinting at playing around with the drawbar but I'm not sure. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, I took the liberty of editing the picture to show you where the drawbar is.
You referenced it being the drawbar yet sounded a bit unsure. It works just like the one on a Bridgeport except for Cincinnati did you a favor by instaling a button to lock the drawbar, as you rotate the spindle with a wrench at the bottom of the spindle just above the toolholder. If you look at your picture "http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g102/cyclone_65/cincinnati/P3290042.jpg"
Here's the pocedure's that I'd take if it were me who was fixing the machine.
1. First make sure the machine is in neutral, by hand you should be able to rotate the spindle with great ease. (If you didn't have the spindle in neutral that could be part of your problem)
2. If your spindle was in neutral, now go to the top of the machine and remove the 5 setscrews holding on the top cover so you can get a good look inside, this way you will also have more of the drawbar exposed to hold with a wrench or something if the forks won't quite engage properly.
3. Place a wrench around the bottom of the spindle on those two flats, and with the drawbar locked turn the spindle to loosen the threads.
One thought with out thinking too hard on the geometries, could it be possible that when you turn the spindle you are turning the wrong way? If the threads must be turned lefthanded to loosen (I believe these are standard right hand), then shouldn't you be turning the spindle right so that the tool holder loosens away from the threads? I could be wrong here, I can't think off the top of my head what way the threads should turn.
If all this doesn't work, maybe the damn thing is just stuck. With out looking in the manual I can't say for sure, but all this is is a drawbar, and it should work like all other drawbars! Maybe try jerking on the wrench but if that fails, perhapse you'll need to just use some real force. Put a pipe around the wrench handle to get good leverage, and as long as you have that drawbar locked pull. Worst case senario I would think would be that the threads are rusted together eventually if you can place enough force on the rod either the rust should give or rod snap.
One other thing to try, if you take the fork's cover off, so you get to the drawbar as I described above, with a good wrench placed around the toolholder, loosen the ram and slide it backwards. You should have it so that when you turn the spindle the wrench handle is jammed firm against the collumn of the milling machine. Then if you can get a wrench around the drawbar try turning the draw bar as opposed to the spindle. I don't know how good of shape the back is, but don't be shy, the one or two times I've done such things on my mill for repairs, I'll stand right on the table to get maximum leverage.
One other funny thing about the machine to note is under the back motor is a grease zert, the darn thing when the head is at 90deg is real hard to get a grease gun to. So when ever you tilt the head definately always add extra grease I've found. Other then that you have a really fine man's machine. An older machinist friend of mine says his dream shop would have a Toolmaster as it's mill and a Monarch 10EE as his lathe!
Sorry if my advice may sound a bit childish. If you did all that I'm stumped. I'm 99.999% sure with out looking at the manual that that is a plain and simple drawbar! So it should loosen just like any other with the exception that I believe you turn the spindle oppisite of the direction you'd normally turn the drawbar.