Finally getting a lathe! (better photos to come)

Well, I'm picking up my first lathe. It's 36", and is made by Patterson, Gotfried & Hunter according to the seller. I don't know much about it, so I shot a PM over to Mebfab, who informed me that it might be worth the money and that it looked to be pre WW1.



I own a small scooter repair and 2 stroke tuning shop, and I will be learning to use this lathe to cut different profiles into cylinder heads, turn the base of cylinders, de-restrict drive bosses, and many other small but useful things. The cylinders I work with are usually 50-200 cc, so they're all pretty small single cylinder applications, and it looks like this will handle it.

I know I'm on a long road here, and that the lathe is going to need lots of tooling and some repairs. It's advertised as in working condition. As I really don't have to get very precise with most of the work I want to do, I'm hoping that it works out very well.

I'll post up some more photos when I get it to the shop.

All the best!

~Josh

I'm having a very hard time finding any information about Patterson, Gotfried & Hunter. When I get this to the shop, I'll take detailed photos and post them. I can't find any references to a Patterson, Grotfried & Hunter lathe. Has anyone heard of this?

~Josh

I found this published in 1914. It only briefly mentions the company as being one of many companies to be drawn to the "five Points" section of New York City.
Article

Found the following in Google Books:

Patterson, Gottfried & Hunter, Inc., New York, has been incorporated to succeed the firm of the same name which has been in bankruptcy since October, 1913. The company will occupy the same quarters at 147- 151 Lafayette Street as a supply house for heating and plumbing supplies. The new corporation has acquired all the assets of the old concern except the trustee's accounts receivable and cash due the trustee on March 31 last, and assumes liability for the operating expenses and merchandise delivered on or after April 1, the same including goods previously o'rdered by the trustee but undelivered on that date. The purchase of the assets was made by a syndicate of former stockholders and accepted by the court after creditors representing 95% of all filed claims had declared themselves in favor of its acceptance. Albert M. Maretzek, who was prominently identified with the old concern and under whose management as trustee the business was conducted during bankruptcy, will continue with the company as manager.

Sounds like this will be an oldie for sure! Hopefully it can serve it's purpose in my shop. Photos coming Sunday.

~Josh

Seems like the whole motor setup was very rigged...


As you can see, I get two speeds out of 3. Unless there's some way to change this that I don't know.


The tailstock with jacobs chuck.


Toolpost. Anyone know where I can get a rocker for cheap?


Date stamped 1904.

I can't tell what HP the motor is, but it's 110v. Would putting a slightly larger pulley on it help with torque, and perhaps pick up the speed of the lathe at all? I'm hoping to at least be able to get this in usable condition for my purposes, and then perhaps later on find something more modern.

I'll make a youtube video too, I guess.

~Josh

Josh -- A couple thoughts about pulleys and speeds for your lathe.

Right now the motor pulley is so small that the v-belt won't wrap well and -- yes -- you'll lose torque. You might want at least a 2.5 to 3" motor pulley -- and yours looks to be less than that.

However, you also want a low speed. Assuming it's a 1725-1760 rpm motor on there now (which is probably what you want -- not 2x that speed), then you may also want a larger "large" pulley if you aim to do threading, turning anything of significant diameter etc. Having a speed down in the 50 rpm range at the spindle will be useful.

You'll also have at least two limitations on how much you can push this lathe. The bed doesn't look very rigid -- so plan on light cuts. Nothing wrong with that -- it will just take longer.

Given the age, the spindle bearings (others may know for this lathe -- babbitt or ??) will likely be seriously limited in top speed. You'll need to assess their kind and condition and capabilities and make sure they're well lubed (clear oil passages etc.).

Don't plan on using carbide bits with this -- sharp high speed steel with positive rakes is what you want.

It does look like you're missing a few gears as well as change gears for feeds and threading? You can still use it for turning, drilling, and polishing.

All that said, there's no reason I can see why this shouldn't be a fun and useful lathe to get started on assuming the price was right.

That "five points section" is very close to the present day Chinatown.

Thanks for the help there Pete! I'll let you know how the pulley goes. I also need to figure out how to care for and lubricate the machine. What's best to clean this with? I plan on keeping a cover over it, as I do a lot of grinding, polishing, abrasive blasting, and a little painting in my shop, and I know a lot of grinding dust or aluminum oxide will only act as 'lapping compund' basically should it get on the ways and other parts of the lathe.

The toolpost seems to be missing a rocker so that I can adjust the angle of my tool. Am I correct about this? (See photos in post 5) Is this something that I can safely grind out on my bench grinder without causing damage to the toolpost? Also, the lathe is mounted on a wooden board. If this pulley system works out well and I can make good use of this lathe, I'm going to keep it for a long time most likely. I was thinking of mounting the motor and the spindle to the wall and removing the board in attempt to save some space, so I can push the lathe back some more, closer to the wall.

I'd like to post some macro photos (close up & detailed) of some of the cuts that I've made with this. Just for starters I chucked a bolt in to just see how it cut. I was able to round off the hex end of the bolt, and drill into the head, etc, but the cuts had to be so very light that it took a long time. When I turn on the auto feed, it would often slow the motor down to the point of stopping if I was trying to cut too deep. I need to measure and figure out exactly how deep I was trying to cut. I also had an old piston pin that I was able to turn a little. The finish wasn't as smooth as I'd expect, but I may have simply not had my tool lined up quite right. This is why I'm thinking I need a rocker.

USMCPOP, I don't know anything about NY really, but I did find the old articles and books interesting for what little info I could find about the lathe manufacturer. Where are you at in VA? I used to live in Fredericksburg and did some work in Quantico for a company doing computer setups and whatnot. It wasn't a very long lasting job because they needed to get everyone security cleared and couldn't afford it, but it was pretty neat while it lasted. Much different from the mom and pop computer store that I came from before.

All the best,

~Josh

Josh -- Yes, looks like you're missing the arc piece that goes under the toolholder. It's also difficult to tell from the pix -- is the large "washer" concave -- it should be. You can buy the missing part either used (Ebay etc.) or new from McMaster Carr. Eventually, you'll want something like an AXA Aloris-type toolpost -- much easier to swap tools and have them on center. The archives here have lots of info on that.

In addition to all the other points above, your flat belt is likely slipping? Once again the archives will have posts about replacing this with a better solution.

Treat her gently and with respect............

Josh, can I suggest that you post this on the "antiques" section of the board? There's a lot of very knowledgeable people there.

To echo what's been said already, keep your spindle speeds low on this lathe.......it was never designed to run at modern speeds.

Always oil everything before starting (especially the spindle) and wipe down when done.

Go ahead and learn to grind the tool bits as this lathe will be too slow to take advantage of carbide anyway. It's a good skill and basic to all machine tools. I think you'll find the old style "lantern" tool post works pretty well. Once you learn how to use it you might not want to update to a quick change post after all. By the way, that washer on the tool post might be on upside down. If you flip it over the concave side might be there. Then all you need is a simple bit that looks like a Woodruff (half moon) key...easy to file out of a chunk of mild steel.

Pick up a copy of "How to Run a Lath" by South Bend...reprints are available everywhere on the net. Good basic info.

As you aquire skill, you'll probably think about getting a more modern machine. That's fine, but remember the old ones are getting more and more scarce. Try to offer it for sale to folks who will appreciate it. I've seen many a nice little old lathe absolutely destroyed by fools.

NEVER be afraid to ask for help....you have a wealth of "mentors" on this board!

Having a hell of a time with this lathe. Cross slide nut was messed up. Mebfab made me some new nuts, but didn't have the right tap. No problem. See below.

A customer of mine said he could tap the nut so I figured I'd let him have a go. 3 months later after no contact, no return phone calls, etc, he pulls in the drive and charges me $125 for cutting the threads when it was originally going to be free because I gave him some parts for his trail bike a while back.

Looks like I'm about to get it back up and running though. I'm keeping my eye out for a bargain though.

Would this thread be better in the Antiques board?

All the best,

~Josh

Sounds like your customer had one of those convenient "memory lapses". Next time he comes in asking for a scooter repair favor, charge him $125.00. Your time is just as valuable as his.

Something I just noticed in your pics.....how are the headstock spindle bearings lubricated? Generally there are a couple of little oilers on top, or at least holes so you can apply oil. Maybe I'm just not seeing them, but your spindle certainly needs lube on a regular basis or the lathe will slow down and eventually stop, hashing the bearings in the process.

Futher comment on the bearings: they might be straight cast iron instead of bronze, babbit metal, etc. I had an old New Haven like that and it was very accurate. Cast iron is actually a very good material for spindle bearings because of the carbon in it, but they absolutely will NOT stand any dirt or lack of lubrication. Clean and oiled are the watch words.

By the way, I think the brass name tag is the distributor/supply house, not the builder.....which brings up the usual question, just who DID build it?

That's really a nice little antique......go slow, easy and enjoy it.

Sorry to hear that you had troubles getting a nut made for the cross slide on this
machine. Did not notice the thread when it was first started, but that's a pretty
vintage machine.

If you are serious about using it, you probably want to put a quick change toolpost
on it and set the rocker style one aside for now. The headstock bearings may be
bronze inserts based on the color visible on one photo. There are oiler points on the
tops of the bearing caps. Be sure to oil the bearings before use every time.

Can't really tell from the photos but your crossfeed handle might not have a graduated
collar on it, so a dial indicator added to the slide might be a good improvement if
you are trying to hit a given dimension.

Jim

I am a little late to this party. It would appear the lathe was built by Carr Brothers in Syracuse NY. That is new to me. If I had this lathe, I would do a google patent search on Carr and the date, just out of curiosity.

This is a pretty old machine, I am sure you can get some light duty use, but since you posted here, I assume you are aware of the age and yuo are interested in its place in history. I suggest another few googles to find out if Syracuse has a historical society. if so; I would make a phone call and see if they might do a little research for you. They should want a nominal donation for time but you should at least learn the dates and general history of the company. If you hit gold, they will have a trade catalog. This maybe a very small builder, never had a catalog and just sold a few machines threw the Patterson outlet.

I dont see any problem with a simple rocker tool post. I use one all the time. I dont actually see a rocker though.

If you dont have much in the lathe, it could work out better to find a 10 inch South Bend or Logan, as a money maker you are kinda up against it with and old machine like that. Great antique though - and capable of doing some occasional light work.

For $125 you should get a lot more than a tapped nut, did I get that right ?!? I have been cleaning house a bit and sold assemblies with dials with nut and screw for that. I guess, with no lathe, its hard to make repairs on a lathe, like chicken and egg. I have a small number of spare acme thread nuts, can you measure yours? Worse case, you replace the screw and nut. Myself and other will have spare rockers, I am sure.

rocker/wedge

The use of the concave washer and the rocker or wedge on a lantern tool post is a bit of an art.
The easiest way to use a lantern toolpost is to get some regular armstrong tool holders.(not the carbide type,or one like you show in your pictures)The common armstrong toolholder has the steel mounted at an angle to the plane of the holder.This feature gives you a fine adjustment of the height.You then make measurements and turn a washer that will put the tool point on center.If your holders are matched you can even interchange them and turn them to any angle without worrying about the height.A poor mans quick change set up.
That tool holder in your pictures is commonly used on a shaper.It wont give you any height adjustment.A shaper or planer doesnt need that adjustment.A lathe does.

Getting low rpm on that lathe should be no problem.
Assuming the back gear works that is.
That would give you 2 direct drive speeds and 2 additional back geared speeds.
Also it appears to have the little spring loaded ball oilers on top of the bearing caps
on the spindle.
You can get pdf copies of South Bend's "How to Run a Lathe" off Steve Wells South
Bend Lathe Site http://www.wswells.com/
That'll help you get some knowledge oon old lathes.


Larry S
Fort wayne, IN

I stumbled across this post while searching for information on Patterson, Gottfried & Hunter, a New York City tool and machinery dealer (I was really searching on Victor Lathe Co., which seems to have emerged from the ashes of the dealer after they ran into financial trouble around 1913-14). It is pretty unlikely that PG&H made your lathe. And Carr Brothers made tool post holders so that explains the name stamp on your tool post.

The true maker of your lathe remains unknown! I encourage you to upload some pictures of it to the VintageMachinery.org Photo Index under Unknown Manufacturer. It looks like your lathe dates from 1906-1910 timeframe based on the years of operation of PG&H and Carr Bros plus the patent date on the tool holder.

Jeff Joslin
Historian for VintageMachinery.org | Welcome

Areomyst said:

I'm having a very hard time finding any information about Patterson, Gotfried & Hunter. When I get this to the shop, I'll take detailed photos and post them. I can't find any references to a Patterson, Grotfried & Hunter lathe. Has anyone heard of this?
~Josh

Click to expand...

There's a decent chance that patterson gotfried and hunter were not the manufacturers of this machine, but rather the dealer
who sold it to the original owner.

It was common to affix a dealer's plate to machines at that time. For example, my seneca falls lathe:



This has a dealer's plate that calls out "Garvin Machinery" from NY.

Some dealers manufactured their own stuff, and sold it along with other brands. They all got the plate
from the dealer. Keep searching, your lathe may may be from some other maker.

Also, machines of that vintage may have very unusual crossfeed screws. That SF machine
has a double start square thread screw on it.

Like your machine, the crossfeed has no graduations on it. One option would be to
remove the original crossfeed bushing and screw, and replace with a modern acme
screw with a graduated dial. Keep the original for posterity of course!

Kind of looks like a Sebastian lathe. Probably rebadged by P, G & H.

Andy