The Hartness Flat Turret Lathe (Jones & Lamson) Looking for a Home - URGENT

A person near Chestertown (Maryland Eastern Shores) recently donated a few machines to Tuckahoe.
At the farm there is still a fairly large machine well deserving to be saved: a Hartness Flat Turret Lathe built by Jones and Lamson Machine Company.



This lathe is fairly big, weighting no less than 7-8000lb, possibly even over 10000lb. It's well equipped with chuck and collets, and from a cursory inspection, it looks like in very good shape and we couldn't find anything broken. Unfortunately, at Tuckahoe we are running out of space and would end up in the field covered with tarps.

It deserves much better treatment than that.

If nobody comes to the rescue of this machine, the owner will soon break it in more manageable chunks and sell it for scrap. As he has donated the other machines to Tuckahoe, he is willing to donate this one to any other non-profit institution that is willing to take care of it.

Unfortunately, when I was there, the space was scrammed with other machines and there was not enough room for taking more decent pictures and I'm still waiting for better pictures from the son of the owner.



A distinctive peculiarity of this lathe is the flat turret: Mr Hartness invented this style of turret with the height lower than the spindle axis, so that long stock could be accommodated. He patented and, at the beginning of the 1900, he was receiving $100 in royalties for each of these lathes sold.



Another interesting feature is that the whole headstock can translate side-wise, while keeping all the mechanical connections with all the feeds.






Lastly, another distinctive feature of this lathe is the system of stops for the turret: rectangular bars between the ways, clamped at the tailstock side:









Here you can find the manual for this lathe

Even if you are unable to rescue it yourself, please, forward the link to this thread to anybody who could be interested. We would really hate to see it chopped to pieces.

Of course, if you're interested, send me a private message.

Thanks!

Paolo

One of those is how I got my only somewhat screwed up finger - I broke it (the machine) and fixed it at A. Hardiman Machine in East Windsor CT circa 1968

Here is a link to one of a few other threads about these machines on this forum .
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-312750/?highlight=Hartness+Flat+Turret+Lathe
I hope this one finds a new home .
Regards,
Jim

How ever ignominious sitting in a field, covered with a trap and packed in grease is. Its far better than being scrapped.

Got 45 tons now inside that was being stored like that. And they all seem to be slowly coming back to life and quite happy to leave the abuses of the past behind them.

If you can afford the removal and transport, I say get it under a tarp and give it some more time to find a home. I would suggest used billboard signs instead of tarps, they last about 5 times as long as normal tarps.

Matt,
I have a few tarps in my backyard as well. The problem is that at the museum we don't like to have too many machines sitting outside and we will probably need soon a couple of premium spots on the lawn.
Plus, I do not think we do have any single piece of equipment capable of lifting that lathe alone, even without considering how soft the soil is in this season.
We have somehow limited resources, we are easily distracted and we should prepare for our big show the weekend after the 4th of July. Several of us live between 60 and 100 miles from the Museum and we try to get as much done as possible each single Saturday. Rescuing that beast would consume us at least another precious day of work and will cost us some money.
Unfortunately, there is no room for it in our collection and it would be only a marginal fit.

If another organization or a private is interested in rescuing this important piece of history, we would be more than happy to help out. But, unfortunately, we cannot save everything we wish it should.

Paolo

I saw that same machine back in the 70s at Brown's B&O Welding in Beltsville, MD, where the guy I worked for had it for a few weeks before somebody from the Eastern Shore either bought it or was talked into hauling it away. I remember thinking at first it had two spindles because of the unusual shape of the headstock. The second I saw your first photo I remembered there was a large collection of square collet pads with it...and sure enough, there they are in the fourth and fifth shots. It looks the same as it did then except the collets are rustier.

From the operators manual 1905-1915.
The flat turret name is derived from the appearance of the flat turret.
There was a 2 x 24 and a 3 x 36 lathe.
Later a double spindle lathe was offered~1912.



John

Everything you ever wanted to know on James Hartness

James Hartness - Wikipedia

and Hartness House Inn | Lodging & Tavern | Springfield VT | Home



Joe in NH

The flat turret name is derived from the appearance of the top of the headstock.

Click to expand...

Have to disagree. The "turret" is what is flat with no tooling bolted on

johnoder said:

Have to disagree. The "turret" is what is lat with no tooling bolted on

Click to expand...

Correct: Hartness' patent, for which he received $100/lathe in royalties over a century ago is the Flat Turret, allowing for the stock to pass over the turret, contrary to pretty much all the other turret lathes.

Paolo

Oldwrench said:

I saw that same machine back in the 70s at Brown's B&O Welding in Beltsville, MD, where the guy I worked for had it for a few weeks before somebody from the Eastern Shore either bought it or was talked into hauling it away. I remember thinking at first it had two spindles because of the unusual shape of the headstock. The second I saw your first photo I remembered there was a large collection of square collet pads with it...and sure enough, there they are in the fourth and fifth shots. It looks the same as it did then except the collets are rustier.

Click to expand...

That's really great! Unfortunately, the guy who bought it back then has died several years ago and his son, current owner of the machine, didn't know much of the history of this lathe.

Now that we have traced back it's history for the past 50 years it would be even more a shame to see it chopped into pieces and sold for scrap.

Paolo

I can't acquire that machine. but I do have a bit of a story in that I, very long ago, interested machinery of this type and and what it does, had a copy of the James Hartness author 'manual,' which is really something other than what most would think of a a 'manual,' as it is a kind of 'treatise,' on the machine and on work in the shops of the early 20th century.

I read through all the book. Then, an acquaintance of mine, an eccentric classics professor at the nearby well known liberal college, who also knew more than a thing or two about objects, starting a job shop machining business on his property and began using one of these flat turret lathes, and using it successfully. I visited a few times to see what they--he and his son, my age--were up to, and loaned them the Hartness 'manual,' thinking well of the whole business as the machine was made in our state, Vermont, by one of the biuggest and most successful firms in the state, and the machine itself was a storied success, though odd.

I left the book with them for quite awhile. Though they really didn't have a need for it, they were adaptive enough to know how to make parts on it, I think it was small bar parts they were making, not chucked parts, though i don't really recall, and I did, finally, ask for my 'manual' back again, and I have it still, well past the demise of that shop and the death of its founder, whom I liked.

I know it's the antique section and everyone has a soft spot of turret lathes, but I can't imagine being the poor bastard chained to that machine for 10+ hours a day. They'd find me swinging from the line shaft...

I think this must have been the smaller of the two sizes made, as mentioned above, and perhaps this example here above is the larger of the two. I would never have imagined a ten thousand pound weight for the machine I recall back then, or the other flat turret machine I saw in another shop. I could be off, but five thousand would have seemed a lot.

johnoder said:

Have to disagree. The "turret" is what is flat with no tooling bolted on

Click to expand...

Right! There was a disconnect between the eyeballs and the brain at 2:30 am.

The machine weight has to be under 6,600 pounds.
Here is the weight of the double spindle flat turret lathe.


The lathe Paolo posted is likely a 3" x 36. The 3" is the spindle bore. Max rpm is 284.
The 2" x 24 max rpm was 380. The spindle bore was later changed to a 2 3/8" diameter.

Most interesting feature to me is that the headstock has cross feed and can be set by stops.

Here are some other views:

John

Well,
As I said, it was very difficult to take decent pictures to give an idea of the size. The headstock itself is roughly 30x30in at least 20" high, filled with rather massive gears. The bed, excluding the headstock portion is roughly 6-8ft long.

The lathe in front of it in the following picture is a 15" Flather with a 5ft bed. The picture is taken with a fairly powerful wide-angle, providing a distorted perspective (i.e. foreground much bigger than background).



When guessing the weight I was the one that came up with the light-most estimate of 6-8000lb. But, considering the thickness of the castings, etc., I wouldn't be surprised if I had underestimated it.
Another thing to consider is that it would be close to impossible to disassemble for transportation: too many shafts and couplings between various parts.

Paolo

Paolo_MD said:

The lathe in front of it in the following picture is a 15" Flather with a 5ft bed.

When guessing the weight I was the one that came up with the light-most estimate of 6-8000lb. But, considering the thickness of the castings, etc., I wouldn't be surprised if I had underestimated it.
Another thing to consider is that it would be close to impossible to disassemble for transportation: too many shafts and couplings between various parts.

Paolo

Click to expand...

Guess I will agree to disagree
If the weight of the double spindle lathe is #6,600 it seems that the single spindle lathe must weigh less.

Who gets the Flather?? Quick change but no taper attachment.
John

John,
To be honest, I really hope you're right and that they didn't just reduce the thickness of the castings on later machines.
Do you have a bed length associated with your weight, or did they offer them only with a specific bed length?

Paolo

I can't acquire that machine. but I do have a bit of a story in that I, very long ago, interested machinery of this type and and what it does, had a copy of the James Hartness author 'manual,' which is really something other than what most would think of a a 'manual,' as it is a kind of 'treatise,' on the machine and on work in the shops of the early 20th century.

Click to expand...

James Hartness has several books from his pen. The first of this list may be the one you loaned?

"The Evolution of the Machine Shop" Evolution of the machine shop : Hartness, James, 1861-1934 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
"The Human Factor in Works Management"
"Machine Building for Profit and the Hartness Flat Turret Lathe"
"Industrial Progress and Human Economics"
"Hartness Flat Turret Lathe Manual - a Handbook for Operators."
"Hartness Flat Turret Lathe - Made in Two Sizes for Both Bar & Chuck Work"
"Hartness Screw Thread Comparator."

Most of these produced while he was at Jones & Lamson, but the economic titles attached to his stint as Governor of Vermont.

Joe in NH