Heald No 25 Rotary Surface Grinder

texasgeartrain · Aug 27, 2017

I have been keeping my eyes open locally for a regular back and forth surface grinder like a Reid, B & S, or maybe a Doall. Well I came across this Heald No 25 rotary grinder and thought I'd have a look. Though I wasn't looking for a rotary, I got a fair deal on it, and thought it was a pretty interesting machine so I'm giving it a shot to see how well I can get it up and running.

Its pretty filthy and kind of in rough shape, but I figure I'll tear it down and go through it And we'll see how it does.

It has a 20" mag chuck and a 10hp motor.

texasgeartrain · Aug 27, 2017

I don't have a lot of info on this machine yet. There are no data tags, just "No 25" cast into the main base. I know No 25 is the precursor to the 25A.

If anyone has info or manuals, I'd appreciate it. I bought a 25a book off ebay for general info, but most of the pics are blacked out as it is apparently a bad photo copy, lol.

Using google I did find an e-book post from 1922, American Machinist, Volume 56, issues 1-13. It shows the No 25 as a recent release, So I'm guessing this machine is maybe from 1922-1940, though I don't know the last year 25's were made. I see a lot of 25a stuff, so i'm guessing 25a's eventually sub-planted the 25's at some point. In the pics it shows a special chuck and jig for grinding piston rings at the time.

I also saw an old vintage add somewhere for 25a's that say "all the great features of No 25's plus more. . ." or something to that effect. Though I can't find it now.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 27, 2017

I worked on a much more recent machine than that one ( 25 A ? ) but it was still built in 1940 ! That one looks ancient. The one I worked on had a motor driving the grinding spindle mounted where that dome shaped cover is on the end of the back end of the grinding ram.

From what I can see there are parts missing from the grinding ram reversing mechanism and the hydraulic ram feed control. When I checked the one I bought there was about 0.020" play in the grinding spindle. The brass bearings are adjustable but these were fully adjusted up. I threw all that lot away and made a new assembly with anti-friction bearings.
As far as I know it's still going strong grinding large stellited rings.

Regards Tyrone.

texasgeartrain · Aug 27, 2017

More machine porn:

texasgeartrain · Aug 27, 2017

I have some other machines I want to get to first, so I don't plan on full tear down immediately on this. But the machine is pretty heavy, in the area of 4000lbs. So I stripped some big pieces off to move and be able to unload from my truck.

But with those pieces off, its taking up too much room, so I want to hang the pieces again. However its so cruddy and I cant bring myself to hang them as is. So I figure I'll take a few days to do a rough cleaning. Clean up ways and dove tail a bit.

Depending on how the cleaning goes, I may do a little painting just so it doesn't look like it has a disease. As it is now, I can't walk within 10 feet of it without being covered head to toe in grease and grime. Its like working on heavy trucks.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 27, 2017

The one I worked on came over here as a " Lend-Lease " machine. It had an hydraulic pump on the back side of the machine driving the ram. You controlled the ram rate of feed with that lever on the front of the machine. The lever on your machine is broken, it should be longer with a detent that engages in that row of holes on the control box.

I got the job of overhauling this machine, I had the vee and flat ways re-ground, new bearings in the grinding spindle, chuck spindle out and new bearings fitted on that.

Funnily enough although the machine was made in the USA the magnetic chuck was made in Oldham, Lancashire, about 5 miles from where I live ! The chuck maker was " Humphrey Brothers " and they were still in the Mag Chuck business about 15 years ago.

I can see the grinding spindle has flywheel type weight looking through the hole on the ram. There should be a cover over that. Under the cover nearest the chuck is the arrangement for adjusting the spindle bearings.

Looking at the latest photos your machine has a mechanical ram feed mechanism, the one I worked on had an hydraulic feed mechanism. There was also a mechanism for up feeding the chuck and a wheel head mounted wheel dressing device, flood coolant and a coolant tank.

You could also grind around 25" or 26" in dia.

Regards Tyrone.

texasgeartrain · Aug 27, 2017

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
The one I worked on came over here as a " Lend-Lease " machine. It had an hydraulic pump on the back side of the machine driving the ram. You controlled the ram rate of feed with that lever on the front of the machine. The lever on your machine is broken, it should be longer with a detent that engages in that row of holes on the control box.

I got the job of overhauling this machine, I had the vee and flat ways re-ground, new bearings in the grinding spindle, chuck spindle out and new bearings fitted on that.

Funnily enough although the machine was made in the USA the magnetic chuck was made in Oldham, Lancashire, about 5 miles from where I live ! The chuck maker was " Humphrey Brothers " and they were still in the Mag Chuck business about 15 years ago.

I can see the grinding spindle has flywheel type weight looking through the hole on the ram. There should be a cover over that. Under the cover nearest the chuck is the arrangement for adjusting the spindle bearings.

Looking at the latest photos your machine has a mechanical ram feed mechanism, the one I worked on had an hydraulic feed mechanism. There was a mechanism for up feeding the chuck and a wheel head mounted wheel dressing device.

Regards Tyrone.

This machine also uses a hydraulic pump and hydraulic cylinder to move ram back and forth.

I have a few broken pieces to sort out including that handle. But nothing major that I can see yet. I'm hoping it goes well. Its a pretty intricate machine, but well built.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 27, 2017

If you go to Machinio.com on the Internet you'll see a later model than the one I worked on for sale in Pomona, Cal.

Also if you look up " Manufacturing Sherman Tank Transmissions " on this Practical Machinist Site you'll see a photo of one that is nearly identical to the one I worked on apart from the missing spindle drive motor.

This one was really heavy, well over 6,000 lbs.

Regards Tyrone.

michiganbuck · Aug 27, 2017

In good shape it is a great machine but mostly just grinds things dead flat..not like a SG or TC grinder that grins most anything. Grinding chuck flat is tricky.. you set a good parallel equal to center and indicate that.. the old chuck grind is not used for that because it may have been ground flat and then tilted to grind a face dish cutter.So the chuck dead flat but adjusted tilt to gind a dish..
You just grind a little and check that little for flat with blue to the good parallel..Thai s saves grinding the whole chick then to find you are not flat.

Yes you can blue test it first to find it is a flat chuck..and then indicate the chuck (or the parallel top)with travel to see it is tilt set to flat.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 28, 2017

I had a 24" parallel straight edge I used to set the ram/chuck alignment before grinding the chuck. I found that over the years the ways wore at the front edge nearest the chuck because of grinding grit landing on the ways. After a while we got fed up with messing with the alignments and had the ways re ground.

Another added degree of complication on this machine was the wheel head mounted dresser was adjustable for angle so you had to be sure that it was dressing the wheel true to the chuck face. You could also throw the chuck over at an angle to try and compensate for way wear.

Sometimes it was a bit of a head scratcher getting everything bang on. We used to grind large square plates on this machine instead of sending them out to be " Lumsden " " Blanchard " or " Mattison " ground. Obviously just grinding rings you can get away with a bit of error but with square plates you can't.

I agree they're a well built machine. The one I worked on must be nearly 80 years old and last I heard it was still grinding all sorts of stuff including stellite and chrome with good results. That's a testament to the builders.

Regards Tyrone.

pressbrake1 · Aug 28, 2017

Ive never worked on a heald rotary grinder, have worked on a lot of heald internal grinders and production boring machines. I can say they are a fine machine and capable of still working in a production environment even in this day and age when the nasty relay logic is replaced by a plc

texasgeartrain · Aug 28, 2017

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
I had a 24" parallel straight edge I used to set the ram/chuck alignment before grinding the chuck. I found that over the years the ways wore at the front edge nearest the chuck because of grinding grit landing on the ways. After a while we got fed up with messing with the alignments and had the ways re ground.

Another added degree of complication on this machine was the wheel head mounted dresser was adjustable for angle so you had to be sure that it was dressing the wheel true to the chuck face. You could also throw the chuck over at an angle to try and compensate for way wear.

Sometimes it was a bit of a head scratcher getting everything bang on. We used to grind large square plates on this machine instead of sending them out to be " Lumsden " or " Mattison " ground. Obviously just grinding rings you can get away with a bit of error but with square plates you can't.

I agree they're a well built machine. The one I worked on must be nearly 80 years old and last I heard it was still grinding all sorts of stuff including stellite and chrome with good results. That's a testament to the builders.

Regards Tyrone.

The ways on this machine are the same, with wear on grinding wheel/chuck end. Plus a little bit of scratches from debris. Besides grit, the weight overhand on that side helps contribute I would guess. The ways about 1/2 way to opposite chuck end are nice and still have the horse shoe shaped marks from scraping in. Its the half towards chuck end that has more wear.

I'm going to have to regrind ways to get it right. Though I think I may get the machine cleaned and operational first. I just don't have doe for a regrind yet. Plus I have a few machines to finish before I fully tear down this one.

Right now I'm just doing some external cleaning, with a little paint, and I'm going to clean and lube ways and dovetail to keep the bulk of machine together until I can fully tear it down. I'll post tear down and build on this thread as I go, plus any info I find.

michiganbuck · Aug 28, 2017

Agree to see how it grinds before regrinding ways .. I have used some Arters and Healds that looked like crap and still did very close work.
Even then re-scraping may be all needed.

Set of rubber boots so protecting the ways from grit.. changing for tall or small jobs can reduce future wear..

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 28, 2017

texasgunsmith said:
The ways on this machine are the same, with wear on grinding wheel/chuck end. Plus a little bit of scratches from debris. Besides grit, the weight overhand on that side helps contribute I would guess. The ways about 1/2 way to opposite chuck end are nice and still have the horse shoe shaped marks from scraping in. Its the half towards chuck end that has more wear.

I'm going to have to regrind ways to get it right. Though I think I may get the machine cleaned and operational first. I just don't have doe for a regrind yet. Plus I have a few machines to finish before I fully tear down this one.

Right now I'm just doing some external cleaning, with a little paint, and I'm going to clean and lube ways and dovetail to keep the bulk of machine together until I can fully tear it down. I'll post tear down and build on this thread as I go, plus any info I find.

Get it up and running and see what it performs like. A lot depends on what you're intending to grind on it.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 28, 2017

michiganbuck said:
Agree to see how it grinds before regrinding ways .. I have used some Arters and Healds that looked like crap and still did very close work.
Even then re-scraping may be all needed.

Set of rubber boots so protecting the ways from grit.. changing for tall or small jobs can reduce future wear..

It's unusual to see a production grinding machine that doesn't look a mess. They're really hard to keep clean. Modern coolants and grinding grit are a tough combination to remove. As you say they might look worn out but it's surprising what work you can do with them.

On the particular machine we're talking about it had a thin sheet rubber " Skirt " about 12" to 15" wide that fastened to the leading edge of the grinding ram and dangled over a roller at the front of the machine and down between the chuck and the main casting. If you kept this in good condition it kept the ways relatively clean.

Regards Tyrone.

TedinNorfolk · Aug 29, 2017

There is a similar type grinder at my old firm,made by Snow,grinds hardened cam rings. Heald made a nice planetary cylinder grinder-would like to come across one of those....maybe better not though,as I've enough to keep me busy!

Tyrone Shoelaces · Aug 30, 2017

TedinNorfolk said:
There is a similar type grinder at my old firm,made by Snow,grinds hardened cam rings. Heald made a nice planetary cylinder grinder-would like to come across one of those....maybe better not though,as I've enough to keep me busy!

Several British companies made ring grinders in the old days. I've seen machines made by " Churchill ", " Snow ", " Abwood ", " Lund ", all of them very good machines. The ones with best reputation as far as can see was " Arter " , they were made in the USA. " Rolls-Royce " used them.

Regards Tyrone.

texasgeartrain · Sep 3, 2017

I got some cleaning and painting done. Cleaned the ways and dovetail. As I mentioned above, I don't plan on operating this at the moment, and I don't want to tear it all the way down yet, I just want to hang the big pieces because it takes up so much space.

As it was getting cleaned up, part of me wanted to keep on trucking and do it now, haha. It is a really interesting machine, but this is going to be a complex and time consuming build, and I really want to get some other machines done first.

In the mean time, it'll be a little more pleasant to look at. The old paint was a solid 1/8" thick, multiple coats, and atleast 4 colors. Orange or yellow at the bottom, and blue, green, and gray.

I was able to just scrape a good deal of it off, or tap with a hammer and it would fall off. After, I wire wheeled, wiped it down with mineral spirits, primed and painted. I did bulk areas, and some places that'll be covered with big pieces mounted. I paint with a brush, a bit time consuming, but no over spray, and its kind of relaxing, haha.

RF · Sep 3, 2017

We had a Heald and Arter rotary surface grinders in my step-dad's shop. Looks good so far. One thing I didn't see in some of your photos was the shield that goes around the mag chuck. It keeps the coolant from flying everywhere.

RF

texasgeartrain · Sep 9, 2017

I got the big pieces mounted back up on the machine until I get the time to tear it all the way down. Once I get to that point, I think I will probably go ahead and have ways ground and scraped. It's a pretty complex machine, and everything is Heavy, I doubt I'll want to tear it down a second time, haha. Though I'm not sure if I'll do the dovetail. With gib adjustment on dovetail, plus table angle is adjustable, not sure if it will be as crucial.

While I was doing a little cleaning and painting on it, I came across a raised area that was stamped "No 125". I'm guessing the 125th built of this model.

I'd really like to keep going with this machine right now, but I'm probably going to take a break from it for a while till I get some others done. Though I plan to keep my eyes open for any parts or info I may come across.

Heald No 25 Rotary Surface Grinder

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