Janvier reducing machines

does anyone have any info on these/own one? most of the info I have turned up has been about mistakes produced by the lathes on master dies for coins, not much about the machines other than the basic concept, I'm very fascinated by these lathes and would really like to learn more about them.

There is an english gentleman, he came over to the USA for one of the Ornamental turning conferences, who has quite a few of these, from different makers.
I cant remember his name, but Bill (Rivett) knows him.

There is very little on the web on these- they were a very limited production item.

I think the best manufacturers were swiss, but quite a few of them ended up in Rhode Island and Connecticut, 60 to 90 years ago.

Most have been scrapped.

The english guy has bought several american machines and tooling, and shipped em back to Great Britain.

David Wood Heath would be my guess.

Rick

Yes, it was indeed David Wood-Heath I am talking about.
He showed slides of his home/shop (the two run together), with something like 40 lathes IN the house.

He has a wide range of these reducing lathes, most likely more than anyone else on earth.

I think the sum total of information on these machines is very small. I dont know of any books that talk much about them at all. Certainly there is almost nothing online.

Ries,

I have a medallion attachment for my 1873 OT lathe that one day I will have to tinker with.

Rick

New member! I just bought one of these machines... in partially restored condition but with some parts missing. I need to find out as much as possible in order to have any hope of getting it running. I joined this forum in hopes of finding information. I own a very small private mint making fantasy coins for the geek market. Home : shirepost.com Die-making is the bottleneck and I am hoping that this machine will give us one more method, and the ability to create pattern reductions and mirror copies.

There is no maker's name anywhere on the frame. The gears are marked Brown and Sharpe, but I think they are just parts.


The basic configuration is that the master pattern and the reduced copy both rotate s-l-o-w-l-y in unison while a stylus rides the master and controls a cutter to make the reduction. The main gearing system is for rotating the master and copy. A subsystem slowly traverses the stylus across the face of the master so that the cutter makes a very small increment of travel for each rotation. I understand that it can take twelve to twenty hours to complete a full pass. This leads me to think that the motor must already be a gear-reduction type even before the pulley system is engaged, to get the speed down slow enough. The parts that are missing are mostly the motor and main drive pulleys. I think there is at least one jackshaft for slowing down rotational speed... possibly two. I can try it with a standard speed motor, but I'm afraid it will be much too fast.

Other than that, the operation of the thing is fairly obvious. There is a clutch to switch rotational direction, but there is no handle or actuator for the clutch... not sure where it's supposed to be or how it's attached. IThere are a couple of brackets that are obviously for doing something... but whatever they do is not clear. I'm at the point of trying to sleuth out the operation by examining wear marks and set-screw scars, trying to deduce what was attached where, and why.

I will probably replace the power-take-off cutter head with a newer electric or air powered spindle, and there is supposed to be some sort of counterweight system for maintaining pressure on the stylus... all missing

I concur that the amount of information available about these machines is very small. I would love to find out if David Wood-Heath has written anything.

If anyone can point me towards any information I would be much obliged!

Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale Arkansas

Ries said:

Yes, it was indeed David Wood-Heath I am talking about.
He showed slides of his home/shop (the two run together), with something like 40 lathes IN the house.

He has a wide range of these reducing lathes, most likely more than anyone else on earth.

I think the sum total of information on these machines is very small. I dont know of any books that talk much about them at all. Certainly there is almost nothing online.

Click to expand...

New member too. Tom I am excited for you and a bit jealous because I like doing what you are doing with the machine. My background is that I possibly worked on one of the widest range of these machines than most people. I used to work for the South African Mint where I qualified as a Die-sinker and engraver. 13 years later I resigned as Chief Engraver and followed Laser micro machining and now I do Advanced Manufacture in Titanium 3D printing. The SA Mint used to be British controlled and the very first engraver sent there was a gentlemen by the name of Erney Nailer. The first machine was a Janvier 1890 model which I personally renovated replacing the reduction cone system that was produced in Australia by a company who had the contract to do it. The cone reduction "gear box" was stolen off the machine even before I worked there. Can you believe this?
The Mint bought a Lienhard machine in the early 60s and I did not spend a lot of time on it. Most of the SA coin series 1960 to about 1980 was done on this machine. There was another machine called a Mint Master. It apparently was designed by an engineer who used to work for the British Royal Mint. There were two guys and I am under correction but he was a Mr. Cooper or Hooper. This machine possibly did most of the new SA series and quite a few other country coin master tooling up to about 2000. It was a good machine but like with most females all these machines prefer to have one master and they hide the reasons for not always performing the quality you need. I stand to be corrected by this statement. So sometimes it is quite a task to find the loose bolt or some element related to vibration and the like. The Mint also had two EVD reduction machines. We had lots of fun trying to sort the vibrations out. Being larger machines the vibrational oscillation waves had distance to build up some nice effects. So there is some sense in a smaller more sturdy machine. The older men had a lot of common sense in those days. Later I worked on Newing Hall Machine and then a Kuhlmann CNC Polaris Prokomat high frequency engraver.
So how can I help you? I have always dreamed of owning such a machine. In 1993 I bought a Deckel GK21 in my private capacity and did some work of my own. I'm a big Deckel fan. In this period I renovated the Janvier at the Mint and made drawings of most of the parts. They can be helpful I think. There are two basic gear systems on the Janvier. The system you have and as with the US Mint which have those massive gears at the back. They used to have the tapered gears like yours. I understand they bought one and copied a few in those days. Got the info from a Janvier sales list which is on the net somewhere. The other system that makes more precision sense to me is the "gear on worm" system. This is the one I made drawings of. My opinion is that these machines consist of specific modules if I can say so and we need to assess what you have and what is missing. So if you can show me photos of all the loose parts you have, I may be able to tell you where they fit in the system and what you need to complete the machine. I may even have drawings for you. To me it seems as if the main elements are there. So the rest is detail and believe me they can consume more time than what you may think. I built my own reduction machine that worked but it was a make shift one and the quality was not too good. I was just very desperate to get one. Currently I have just renovated a Lienhard reducing machine I bought for a bargain three months ago after waiting 24 years for the opportunity. In my opinion your machine has a strong Janvier influence but I am not sure if it is one. Some models were copied and some manufacturers like Lienhard (Swiss), Austen and some others used the Janvier basis but made things a bit differently.
Our of interest there are very few articles and documents on the subject on the web. My opinion is that the people who find joy in these systems are not internet Google profile people. They are there though. For now we must save these machine from ending up on scrap yards and get them in their working state. Being someone who work in a CAD/CAM and hi-tech environment I am telling you that the quality my 1952 Lienhard can produce will require a multi million Rand (hundreds of thousands of Dollars or Euros) CNC system to produce. Remember that CNC systems are still digital which means steps. These reduction machines are Analogue which means smooth curve. As with lasers, this process has a niche and they are unbeatable in that niche even today.(affordability speaking)

David Wood Heath is still active in ornamental turning in England-
Public pages ©SOT 2014
he is doing a demo in February.
I would try to get in touch with him, thru the Society.
He owns Janviers, as well as Lienhards. He really knows his stuff.

Hi Ries

Is there any chance someone can take some videos? The info on these machines are very limited.

Sorry, Johan, I am not in the UK.
I live many thousands of miles away, on the West Coast of the US.
I saw David speak once, here in the USA, and he was very interesting, entertaining, and knew a lot.
In this era of smart phones, it seems likely somebody has taken video of him speaking, but you would have to contact people in the UK who belong to the SOT- the Society of Ornamental Turning.

Thanks Ries

Johan Steyn said:

New member too. Tom I am excited for you and a bit jealous because I like doing what you are doing with the machine ........ this process has a niche and they are unbeatable in that niche even today.(affordability speaking)

Click to expand...

Hello Johan: Sorry to reply so late, I only just now found your message. You can always contact us through our shirepost dot com website and the email address info at shirepost dot com.

I totally agree that these machines are becoming rare and it is up to those few of us interested in such things to save them from the scrap-heap. The project is on the back-burner here, only because we don't have a clear idea of how to move it forward, and because other methods of die-production are working reasonably well for us for the medieval styling that we're usually aiming for. I much appreciate your insight that the smooth analog curves resulting from the operation of these will always be of a different character than any of the modern step-type machining or digital laser alternatives. Much like listening to vinyl LP records rather than digital CDs, it is a subtle but palpable distinction. I would love to learn more of what you know of these things!

Our main project lately has been the restoration of a 1930s vintage Ferracute coining press that originally was in the Denver Mint in the 1930s. We have spent several months with it, and have finally got it running as it should be, including the integral feed-system. It will run at up to 90 pieces per minute... slow by modern mint standards, but four times as fast as our next fastest press.
Many good wishes! Tom Maringer and Woody Maringer at Shire Post Mint.

All information about reducing machines I read so far state the object to be reduced rotates. This is well for round coins. What I would like to know is it also possible to use these machines for square, or other non-round coins and if so, how is this done? If anyone can enlighten me about this I would like to hear. Thanks!