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Hi everyone. New in forum

metalworker

Plastic
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Location
Mexico City
Hi all. I´m from Mexico City and I want to present to you a old welder generator in almost finished restoration. It´s a HOBART WELDER ´SIMPLIFIED ARC´ MOD GW-222 assembled in a wisconsin engine T F 1954. Please go to www.flickr.com/photos/cacahuatito/ I hope you enjoy it. Anyway I´m here for if can help or you ask. Of course I like to learn something about your forum. Thanks for your acceptation.
 
Wow....

I'm new here as well, so welcome. I know nothing about welders, but I do know that the pictures you have on flickr are gorgeous. Congratulations on a fine refinishing job.
 
What a classic. Very nice. I never got a long with those motors, maybe not the same model but that vintage. Those WI engines were temperamental. Of course if I were a 30-40 yr old motor that had been ridden hard and put a way wet I might be that way too. Hey, I am that way! Thanks, John.

Couple of years {I mean 2-3} at the Baraboo Gas/steam show there were I would guess 3 different Kohler, 4 cly gen sets. Tiny little 4 cyl tikes that looked in very good unrestored shape. I hadn't planned on this show being as great as it was and didn't bring my truck, just had my Metro car. Cheap too, the next year I brought the truck, prices crazy high and not a one of them. Your welder restoration made me think of these old Kohlers, again thank you and welcome. I highly recommend the Baraboo Gas and Steam show if your anywhere near. Aug 15-17 in Baraboo, Wi. Cheers, John.
 
A very nice looking welder, it must be a pleasure to use. Those older welders had alot of reserve power. I had a slightly larger handcrank V-4 Wisconsin with a Licoln welder around the same vintage. John you're bang on about the "well experienced" ones being tempermental. Before I rebuilt it, it would play at starting... kick a few times and then nothing for several cranks (bad compression when hot, damp magneto when cold). Sometimes, I would be dripping with sweat trying to restart it to finish a job. They also were awe inspiring, one moment you're cranking at close to zero rpm, the next the fairly large and heavy flywheel is doing 1800 rpm a fraction of an inch from your hand, that is if the hand crank released.

For hard starting engines there are plans in old Popular Mechanics where you use a car starter that pivots into the flywheel to crank the engine over for you. I've seen 2 versions, direct drive for smaller engines and a drive throught a ring gear. The starter pivoting in makes the solenoid conection. Both could be done without really modifying the motor. Dave
 
16 year old's adventure in welding. "Here" he says to me. "Hold these two pieces in alignment while I tack it together."

He passed to the other end of the assembly we were working on, touched the stinger to the metal and I realized, SUDDENLY, that the ground clamp was to my left, and the that guy with the stinger was to my right.

I wish I could have told him to stop with the stinger for a minute while I catch my breath.

Oh, and don't wrap your "thumb" around the crank handle. Grab it between your fingers and palm with the right hand. If you get a backfire, it doesn't break your thumb. You'll just get a nasty wrap on the tibia (or whatever) as the crank comes around and hits you on the forearm. "Boss" Kettering approves this message.

Best,
Joe in NH
 
That's a very nice welder indeed.

I love old Wisconsins, and I guess I've had better luck with them than some. I have a couple of Wisconsin powered lawnmowers, one of which has been mowing my lawns steadily for the last 25 years or so. Mine start better if you slowly pull the rope to TDC and let the compression pull it back a little, then give it a good yank. The magneto has a kicker that puts out a big starting spark, but it seems to be designed for hand cranking rather than spinning.

Many of these, including versions of the two cylinder that metalworker shows, and the single cylinder AENL shared by my Kut Kwick mower and the King Midget automobile, were equipped with a belt driven Delco starter-generator, basically just a DC generator with a switch to run it as a motor. I still have the generator for mine somewhere in storage, removed when the voltage regulator conked out, and I found a rope worked well enough.

Anyway, that welder is a beauty.
 
Back in "73" I worked at RR museum along with an old friend Randy Q. Randy now works for the UP and is there go to guy for any of the UPs assorted passenger cars. One top notch railroader who can't stand dummies, he still talks too me so things are looking up. Anyway we had this miserable gas engine that ran our high pressure water pump for washing out boilers. I usually got the job of starting and priming this thing. It was a treacherous slide down the river bank and then you had to stand on a small platform while fighting this thing. I could get it started usually, but I had learned when it got hot and shut off for any reason you had problems. Don't remember why Randy was down there on the motor instead of me, probably because I didn't mind. He got the thing to finally start and he had let go of the crank handle. No it wasn't still engaged, but the momentum of the shaft had the crank just a spinning. I remember watching him look up at me, and then the crank caught him in the groin, his boys took a direct hit. He and I used too fight like brothers, but it hurt to see that happen. To this day I cringe when I think of the hot summer day and him curled up and speechless. I hate Wi engines too this day. When I blew a piston out of this thing, I was triumphant that we were going to get something better. They bought another piston and it was there till I quit coming around in about 1980 or so. Kick back, crank for what seemed hours, this was not as bad as when it shut off when hot. No wonder I used too drink so much. I am sure it was the magneto. My Farmall Cub has a mag and my first two motorcycles when I was a kid had mags. They all kicked, all were tempermental. Take a Harley with a stripped starter gear, a kick starter with the pedal all but gone, and a dumb skinny kid, you got some intertainment.
John.
 
A very nice looking welder, it must be a pleasure to use. Those older welders had alot of reserve power. I had a slightly larger handcrank V-4 Wisconsin with a Licoln welder around the same vintage. John you're bang on about the "well experienced" ones being tempermental. Before I rebuilt it, it would play at starting... kick a few times and then nothing for several cranks (bad compression when hot, damp magneto when cold). Sometimes, I would be dripping with sweat trying to restart it to finish a job. They also were awe inspiring, one moment you're cranking at close to zero rpm, the next the fairly large and heavy flywheel is doing 1800 rpm a fraction of an inch from your hand, that is if the hand crank released.

For hard starting engines there are plans in old Popular Mechanics where you use a car starter that pivots into the flywheel to crank the engine over for you. I've seen 2 versions, direct drive for smaller engines and a drive throught a ring gear. The starter pivoting in makes the solenoid conection. Both could be done without really modifying the motor. Dave

Sincerelly I appreciate your comments. Yes it's so hard to work with the crank but if this engine was made for crank start I will keep in original specs. Well, after some knock outs with the crank I learn to run the engine without problem. The secret is the engine it's timing perfect, contact points good, very cleaned carb and most important ¡Don't be scarred¡ and you will love this beauty. Thanks all for your comments. Sure I have so many pics of this engine, only you have to E- mail me and sent to everyone who's like it [email protected] Thanks again
 
You are so right about not being afraid of a kick boxing motor like some are. Like you I learned how to work with it and got to be good at it. I didn't know how to adjust the timing perfectly, I remember it had a little knob and you could tweek it with that. The one I ran actually started pretty good when cold, if you did everything it demanded it would start. You learned not to grasp the crank. You learned to check the gas before starting it. You couldn't be afraid of it, but you had to respect it for what it was. Once you got it running you had too immeditately prime the pump and screw the plug back down before you lost prime. I don't know why I never built a valve with maybe a 0.5 gal bottle of water on top for priming purposes. Guess we just accepted it as was. Have heard that all the things you mentioned as being absolutely necessary with these. The motor I used was a female, we tolerated each other, but she was tempermental to the end. She may have even have been possessed. Most motors with mags are from my perspective. Again, very nice job on this. John.
 
That is a nice machine! Great job!

It does make my left middle finger ache. I sliced it open when working on one of those welders many years ago.
 
Metalworker, I didn't mean change it from original specs, yours is a beautiful motor and to modify it would be wrong. Also yours being rebuilt likely doesn't need it. However, if it is ornery cranking gets old real fast. Up here the dampness gets into the magneto during the and it doesn't matter how well the points are adjusted or the carb is tuned, it won't start. The starter assembly was basically a bolt on and would hinge out of the way. If you could use the direct drive you would not change your motor no more than you would putting it on a skid.

Yours probably is a lady and starts easily, some are like that. Before mine was rebuilt when it would start it started smoothly. After the rebuld, when it had compression the kick to it was much greater. Even with the correct grip, the starter handle may not fully disengage or get caught enough (ask me how I know this). On ornery ones, John might say you could do it for the boys. Dave
 
Welcome to the forum, Metalworker. My Spanish is marginal, learned of necessity on jobs in South America almost 30 years ago, so I will stick to English.

I always liked the magneto ignitions. Something reassuring about not having to place reliance upon a battery to make spark. I have an old Gravely "L" two-wheel tractor with the Wico magneto, and it just fires up and runs whether I am blowign snow in winter or bush-hoggin in summer. I have a 6 HP Wisconsin built in 1948 I used on a Quincy compressor. It also has the Wico mag. Started like a shot. My buddy has a 1939 John Deere tractor, the 2 cylinder "popper". It has the Wico magnetor. You start it by heaving on the flywheel. It has a TDC mark cast right on the flywheel so you can get the crankshaft pre-positioned before you heave the flywheel. It starts quite easily.

I have not seen a Hobart welder like yours in many years. A neighbor had borrowed one for a repair job and asked me to help him out. That has to be 25 years ago. It was the same machine you have. It was on a steel-wheeled undercarriage, and was a heavy thing to move around. I crank started it OK and burned plenty of E 7018 electrode with it to modify a truck snowplow and subframe, then run some hard-facing rod on the cutting edge.
I think the carburetor was kind of sloppy, dripping raw gasoline, but otherwise it was a good running welding machine and held the heat fine.

As I mentioned, I had worked some engine erecting jobs in South America. One thing I learned quickly was to always make sure to get a welding machine which could be crank started. Batteries never seemed to last. Mostly, we had the old classic Lincoln welding machines with the Continental Red Seal Engines. These had magneto ignitions, and could be started by crank or electric starter. We used to crank start them.

On my last overseas job in Paraguay, we had one of the Lincoln welders (SA model ?) with the Red Seal Engine and magneto. We were doing alot of piping and structural welding, so needed a second welding power supply. We were about 100 miles from any paved road, so finding anything like another welder was none too easy. A landowner had a welder to rent. It was a home-made job. It consisted of a flat deck trailer with Brazilian built welding generator and a Brazilian-built air-cooled diesel engine. The diesel engine was a Deutz design. It was belted to the welding generator. The welding generator had an open cntrol box with a rheostat and reactance right out in the open air. The local Paraguayans knew how to get the diesel started as it was of a type they used on water pumps and generators. Starting in the mornings was a two-man job. One guy took a rag and twisted some steel baling wire around it. He dunked it in diesel fuel and lit it. The burning oil rag was held alongside the air cleaner, and the same guy held the compression release open. The other guy hand cranked the engine. Whe it seemed to be rolling fast enough, the crank was pulled free and the compression release closed. If the engine fired and ran, it was kept running all day.

There were no markings on the controls for the welding generator, so you ran some trial weld to get your heat set. I ran some E 6010 on open root welds and E 7018 and that crude welded ran just fine. We welded steam lines for a sawmill powerplant with that home-made welder and the old Lincoln. Without a bunch of fancy modern digital systems, those welders made good welds. I know what sound welding for piping has to be, and that crude welding machine held the heat and maintained a good arc, and made sound weld.

Your Hobart welder is one of those oldtimers. Millions of miles of weld must've been laid down by those old style welding machines with welders running stick electrode. Plenty of that weld "passed X ray" and is still holding just fine. It's a rugged old machine that will keep right on going with reasonable care.

Those same 2 cylinder Wisconsin engines were also used on hay balers. Early tractors had no PTO, so hay balers were offered with engine drive. The hay baler engines had a handwheel on the end of the crankshaft. You crossed your arms and gave a wrenching motion to the handwheel to start the Wisconsin engine on a haybaler. The trick was to turn the engine over slowly, find TDC ahead of time.

Hobart used to sell the same welding generator as used on your machine. The idea was that a person could then drive the welding generator with whatever they had available such as an old car engine or tractor power takeoff. Hobart also made a version which consisted of a Willys Jeep with a PTO drive belted up to a Hobart welding generator mounted on the rear bed of the Jeep. I only remember seeing catalog pictures of this when I was a kid. Basically, the same welding generator as used on your machine was mounted on the bed of a Jeep. The idea was a self-propelled welding outfit that could be driven right to the job.

The biggest engine I ever crank-started was a LeRoi. It was a 4 cylinder engine on a 40 Kw generator. 476 cubic inches, dual systems: magneto ignition as well as coil and points. It was a WII US Army Signal Corps genset, used for emergency power in a hydroelectric plant. I used to start that engine once a week to make sure it would fire when needed. That engine was on a skid with the crank barely skimming the floor at 6:00 position. I'd pull it over maybe two turns with the magneto "cold" and choke on full. I'd postion the crank so it was set Half choke, magneto "hot". The crank was set so pushing it down from about the 4:00 position would kick the engine over. I'd put the arch of my boot on the crank handle and give it a hard kick. The LeRoi engine would fire right up. I had tried pulling up on the crank with my thumbs tucked in, and never could get it to fire off. Kicking down on the crank did the trick. I suppose if that engine had kicked back, I would have gone flying backwards.

I know that as a young engineer on powerplant work, all we had were generator type welding power supplies. Some motor-generator, some engine driven. We did SMAW and we did TIG welding with them. I enjoyed listening to the sounds of the engines on the welders picking up load. You could tell a good welder by the smoothness of the engine under load as he held a good arc.

Nowadays everything is much more complex and little, if anything can be hand-started. When the digital welding equipment works properly, it is amazing, but when it fails, it is done. The old welding power supplies were simple, rugged, and a person could repair them int he field in most cases. I know you laid a nice paint-job on your Hobart welding machine, but it would be fun to go burn some rod with it.

Joe Michaels
 
Welcome to the forum, Metalworker. My Spanish is marginal, learned of necessity on jobs in South America almost 30 years ago, so I will stick to English.

I always liked the magneto ignitions. Something reassuring about not having to place reliance upon a battery to make spark.

All the small aircraft engines I've ever seen rely on a dual magneto system. (Exception being some experimental craft) Properly cared for they are VERY reliable.

English is what's needed in here anyway. ;)
 
I agree Joe, the John Deere's with the Wico were and are a great combination. It was JD tractors that got me going on farm tractors years ago. I had an original JD A {1937 I think} unstyled, every part on it was factory except the hardware store green paint. If I remember right these can be multi fuel too if you have too, might have to mix a little firewater into the mix. Sold it of course as I was seriously trying to farm and needed the money for other projects. I also started Leroi engine on one of the earliest Burro cranes in existence at MC RR museum. It used to run and I could start that one very easy with no kick back. I hand start my H with crank as I can't keep a 6 v batter charged up enough to do the job. Starts in any weather, but it is not a mag either. I think they are the best for off grid or out of the shop work, for the above mentioned reasons. But it is hard to trust a dog that has bitten you, even it was your fault. This is one of my draws to the Lister motors is it doesn't need a battery. My parents never bought a single toy that I can remember that took batteries, even as a kid I saw the sense in that one. I think battery operated toys were rather new concept at the time, never questione their decision, just like life as an adult, who wants to be caught with a dead battery. Cheers, John.
 
John:

I agree with your wanting a Lister diesel for a home genset. I used to work in South America and did one short job in West Africa, all on generating plant jobs. What always bothered me was the fact that the various agencies, engineering firms and dealers all pushed "state of the art" generating sets and related switchgear at people and regions that really did not need anythign so sophisticated. I'd arrive overseas and find the local crews had plenty of familiarity with diesel engines and generators and ballhead/hydraulic governors. Of course, the aid-agencies working hand-in-glove with consulting firms and dealers would specify the latest equipment with fully automatic controls, electronic governing, automatic synchronizing, auto load sharing, and on it went. The results on site varied.

Probably my biggest bitch was the continuing idiotic practice of selling diesel gensets with electric starting motors. Invariably, the batteries grew legs and never made it from the port of entry to the sites where the gensets were to be installed. With no batteries, the starting motors along with all the fancy electronic gear could not work. We would be dead in the water while a frantic effort was made to round up storage batteries with enough cranking power to wind up somethng like a 16 V 149 TI detroit diesel or a 399 series 'Cat diesel. I'd come stateside and raise hell, telling everyone to try to specify and sell engines with air starters and as much manual control and basic stand-alone governing as they could.

I had been spoiled by air-starters on older diesel generating plant engines. There would be a small "pony" compressor with a rope-start engine to make starting air for black starting. If that was not in place, you could usually get a truck with airbrakes and connect off the brake reservoir to charge starting air.

I remember visiting this one old powerplant in Missouri. It had been built under the REA. It had a mix of diesels- Cooper Bessemers, Nordbergs, Fairbanks-Morse. All were air start engines, using starting air shot right into the cylinders by a distributing air valve and working pilot-operated starting air valves on each cylinder. There were several electrically driven compressors to charge the starting air receiver tanks. In an odd corner of the plant, I found this little gasoline engine with a magneot ignition and rope start. It was belted to a compressor. That was the black start capability for that whole powerplant.

I worked on a hydro plant where they had this huge old Waukesha gasoline engine for black start and emergncy operation of the floodgates. It was a monster, probably 1000 cubic inches. It's starting system was reminiscent of the old 'cat tractor engines. It had a small flathead 4 cylinder gasoline engine with magneto ignition and rope start mounted on a bracket alongside the engine block. The little 4-banger had electric as well as rope start on it.

I worked jobs overseas where the clients bought used medium speed US built diesel engines and generators. These were typically opposed-piston Fairbanks-Morse, or old Alco enginesand one lone GM-Cleveland 8 268A.

These were air start engines. each got shipped over with a black start compressor consisting of either a Wisconsin or Kohler gasoline engine and compressor on a skid base. Those were jobs I enjoyed as I could come on site, get the plant built and started up without having to run arund the area chasing after storage batteries or chasing gremlins in modern electronic controls. The local people generally understood a basic AC generator and synchronizing it manually, so all the modern bells and whistles were mainly a royal PITA. Those modern bells and whistles were costly, so the dealers and consultants back in the USA got rich on the deal and the rest of us had to try to make it work at some remote site. If I were going to do the same typ eof jobs in simple, remote power plant today, I would still take an air-start engine with a basic Woodward UG series governor and manual synchronizing over anything with the digital control and auto synch and programmable logic controller.

Probably the best example of black starting in the middle of nowhere was seeing an old 'Cat dozer in action. I was with a friend of mine out in Wyoming. We had ridden some distance off road to visit a cabin he had. After awhile we came to a place to ford a crick. My friend had not been there for a couple of years and expected the fording place had washed out. He kept an ancient D-6 dozer parked on higher ground, cans over the exhaust stacks. It was a pony start machine with cable-hoist for the blade, so nothing to deteriorate drastically. My friend had some fresh gasoline for the pony engine. He gassed up the pony, opened the compression release petcocks and pulled the ripcord a few times. He closed the ptcocks, pulle dont he choke and made the magneto hot. One pull and the pony engine popped off. After idling the pony- which circulated and warmed the coolant in the 'Cat's diesel engine- my friend opened the compression release on the diesel and threw in the starting clutch. This rolled the diesel over for some time to get oil up into it. A few minutes of that and soon enough, the diesel was running. My friend then regraded the ford and we continued on our way. The old 'Cat sat out there in the weather for a year or two at a time and fired right up when needed. No batteries, no hydraulics, just a basic machine and about as reliable as they come. I always considered that quite a standard that modern equipment usually can;t match up to.

I like the idea of being able to bring an engine to life without having to have a battery charged up or (as is the case with modern powerplants) substantial amounts of grid power.
My favorite overseas job remains the steam power plant I designed and erected in Paraguay. That was a plant you could start with an armload of kindling and a match if you had to- as long as you had water in one of the boilers.

Joe Michaels
 








 
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