smokepolesc
Aluminum
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2006
- Location
- South Carolina
The challenge of identifying various lathe chuck adapters and face plates can be pretty daunting. The following bits of insight and sources of hard information are offered to assist in that endeavor.
The standard lathe spindle nose styles are threaded, "A1-5...A1-20" type; "L00...L3" - Long taper drive key, and D1-3...D1-11cam lock. These are well documented in the handbooks noted below and have changed little over the years. he comments below addres the threaded types, which have far more variation and are what are most commonly found on earlier machines.
Threaded spindle noses were the norm for all tool room lathes and most production lathes until the 1920’s when the A, B, and cam lock types came into use. Unique sized threaded spindles were often preferred by many machinists to do small high precision work on precision bench lathes because the “production” machines couldn’t use their tooling.
Prior to WWII, each lathe manufacturer had their own version of the “standard” spindle noses. They did this to keep their customers coming back to them for replacements and new tooling. I have seen a number of early South Bend, Sheldon, Logan, etc. lathes that were supposed to be 1½ x 8 or 2¼ - 8 and the chuck adapters from one would loosely fit the other, but the not visa-versa. In many cases, they are not interchangeable. The diameter and length of the cylindrical “land” in front of the shoulder and the thread per inch, and in some cases, the thread form could vary from maker to maker.
Because the resulting chaos interfered with WWII production, the US government forced the issue. The first generation of the ANSI standards listed below were adopted in 1943 for lathes and milling machines. The CURRENT standards listed below are referred to in chapter 40 of Tool and Manufacturing Engineers Handbook; 3rd Edition; Daniel B. Dallas, Editor; Society of Manufacturing Engineers; McGraw-Hill Book Company; copyright 1959 & 1976. Similar references will be found in Machinery’s Handbook.
The current standards are not the same as the pre-WWII versions. One source of information for early specs would be the pre-WWII editions of Machinery’s Handbook. British and European makers have had their own independent standards for many years, but currently conform to the ISO (International Standards Organization) standards which are generally in line with the current ANSI standards.
ANSI - American National Standards Institute, New York
“Machine Tapers” ANSI B5.10-1963
“Spindle Noses and Tool Shanks for Milling Machines” ANSI B5.18-1972
“Spindle Noses” ANSI B5.9-1967
Prior to the introduction of the ANSI standards in 1943, South Bend lathes seemed to be closer to the nominal threaded spindle size, a 2¼ - 8 spindle had a 2.250 land diameter, 8 threads to the inch, with a 2.250 max thread OD. Others makers of 2 ¼ - 8 varied significantly, from a smaller 2.150 land diameter with smaller OD threads to 2.315 land and larger diameter threads.
To illustrate, I have a Sebastian gear head 12 x 36 bench lathe, manufactured by Sheldon for Sebastian in 1941, that appears to have a 2 ¼ - 8 threaded spindle. In reality, the land measures 2.157. A 2 ¼ - 8 South Bend face plate is very loose. The Sebastian came with a small face plate which has a 2.275 land and 8 threads to the inch that will actually spin on the spindle. It also came with a large face plate that appears to have been made by South Bend with a 2.25 land and 5 threads to the inch. I suspect this one is for a milling machine. Many early horizontal mills had a threaded spindle nose with a non-standard coarse thread such as 2 3/16 – 6 or 2 5/16 – 5. Lathe chucks were sometimes fitted to the mill spindle and used for grooving and facing operations like a lathe.
Please feel free to correct any errors and add to this! I really struggled with a couple of machines to figure out what the spindle nose was and where to look for tooling.
SmokepoleSC
The standard lathe spindle nose styles are threaded, "A1-5...A1-20" type; "L00...L3" - Long taper drive key, and D1-3...D1-11cam lock. These are well documented in the handbooks noted below and have changed little over the years. he comments below addres the threaded types, which have far more variation and are what are most commonly found on earlier machines.
Threaded spindle noses were the norm for all tool room lathes and most production lathes until the 1920’s when the A, B, and cam lock types came into use. Unique sized threaded spindles were often preferred by many machinists to do small high precision work on precision bench lathes because the “production” machines couldn’t use their tooling.
Prior to WWII, each lathe manufacturer had their own version of the “standard” spindle noses. They did this to keep their customers coming back to them for replacements and new tooling. I have seen a number of early South Bend, Sheldon, Logan, etc. lathes that were supposed to be 1½ x 8 or 2¼ - 8 and the chuck adapters from one would loosely fit the other, but the not visa-versa. In many cases, they are not interchangeable. The diameter and length of the cylindrical “land” in front of the shoulder and the thread per inch, and in some cases, the thread form could vary from maker to maker.
Because the resulting chaos interfered with WWII production, the US government forced the issue. The first generation of the ANSI standards listed below were adopted in 1943 for lathes and milling machines. The CURRENT standards listed below are referred to in chapter 40 of Tool and Manufacturing Engineers Handbook; 3rd Edition; Daniel B. Dallas, Editor; Society of Manufacturing Engineers; McGraw-Hill Book Company; copyright 1959 & 1976. Similar references will be found in Machinery’s Handbook.
The current standards are not the same as the pre-WWII versions. One source of information for early specs would be the pre-WWII editions of Machinery’s Handbook. British and European makers have had their own independent standards for many years, but currently conform to the ISO (International Standards Organization) standards which are generally in line with the current ANSI standards.
ANSI - American National Standards Institute, New York
“Machine Tapers” ANSI B5.10-1963
“Spindle Noses and Tool Shanks for Milling Machines” ANSI B5.18-1972
“Spindle Noses” ANSI B5.9-1967
Prior to the introduction of the ANSI standards in 1943, South Bend lathes seemed to be closer to the nominal threaded spindle size, a 2¼ - 8 spindle had a 2.250 land diameter, 8 threads to the inch, with a 2.250 max thread OD. Others makers of 2 ¼ - 8 varied significantly, from a smaller 2.150 land diameter with smaller OD threads to 2.315 land and larger diameter threads.
To illustrate, I have a Sebastian gear head 12 x 36 bench lathe, manufactured by Sheldon for Sebastian in 1941, that appears to have a 2 ¼ - 8 threaded spindle. In reality, the land measures 2.157. A 2 ¼ - 8 South Bend face plate is very loose. The Sebastian came with a small face plate which has a 2.275 land and 8 threads to the inch that will actually spin on the spindle. It also came with a large face plate that appears to have been made by South Bend with a 2.25 land and 5 threads to the inch. I suspect this one is for a milling machine. Many early horizontal mills had a threaded spindle nose with a non-standard coarse thread such as 2 3/16 – 6 or 2 5/16 – 5. Lathe chucks were sometimes fitted to the mill spindle and used for grooving and facing operations like a lathe.
Please feel free to correct any errors and add to this! I really struggled with a couple of machines to figure out what the spindle nose was and where to look for tooling.
SmokepoleSC