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turret lathe workholding help

M. Moore

Titanium
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Location
Vancouver Island, B.C. Canada
Small job for a turret lathe but I need the practice.
40 pieces of 3/8" x 1.5" x1.5" mild steel that need to be drilled and tapped off-center.
My first thought is to drill and tap on the drill press and then I looked over at the now functioning Ward #7 lathe and
I wondered if there was an easy way to hold these pieces for drilling and tapping.

The tolerance on these is big, no need to even mention it, I just need to drill and tap them quickly.
I have a three jaw mounted on the lathe right now and I have a good size four jaw for the lathe but I would need to make the adapter plate so it could be mounted on the spindle. I also have a collet head with many sizes of collets just to let you know.

So do any of you old turret hands have any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

Michael

For pics of the lathe see this thread, http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...y/ward-7-turret-lathe-need-info-quick-237363/
 
Michael,

Wow, what a great looking turret lathe you have. There's been a Gisholt #3 local that the seller has been trying to get rid of, rather than scrap but nobody has bitten on it. He mentioned to me in an email that he's done his best to save all the handles and knobs, and the machine is complete. I wish I had room, he was asking $300/obo.

Those classic turret lathes are really a milestone in machine evolution.

I can think of a way, which would be to create a fixture that has a shank on it, which would attach to the headstock collet. Maybe that would be how you could repeat the offset without having to calibrate each piece? Does that make sense? The key would be to be able to secure and remove the piece and/or would the time invested be worth it for 40 pieces? Otherwise if you didn't have a fixture that could mount to a collet, you might need to use a 4-jaw and that would be a time killer.

Cheers,
Alan (watching to see what others have to say)
 
I'd do something along the lines of what Alan is suggesting: Take a slug of round steel (or even aluminum) about 3" diameter. Face it off, then mill a slot in the face that's 1.5" wide x 3/8" deep. Your parts will slip into the slot and be driven by the sides of the slot. Drill and tap for a couple of socket head cap screws with heavy washers to clamp the part down into the slot. Then measure and drill for a dowel pin or cap screw that one side of the part will contact against to give you the correct eccentric location. That's it. The slug overall goes right in your 3 jaw chuck, centered. To change parts, stop the spindle, loosen the cap screws and slide the part out of the side of the slot opposite the stop pin. Set up your turret with a spot drill, tap drill, and a sliding tap holder.
 
Thanks guys,
Nice to know how to do it like a pro!
It seems like a lot of work for 40 parts but I may do it just for fun anyway. I am sure I could adapt the method to other jobs that may come up
so it would be a useful exercise.

My thought on the problem was similar, mount a very small vise in the chuck and clamp the work in that. So I was thinking along the right lines but
I would not have come up with Bruces' method.

My turret lathe operators handbook is very good but did not address this particular setup.

In this case it is probably faster to do it on the dp but I am
always looking for ways to use the turret lathe as I've got to get my money back out of it!

Michael

Alan,
Find some room and save the old girl! You know you want to!
 
Alan,
Find some room and save the old girl! You know you want to!

Michael,

You are spot on, I would love it...luckily I just checked and it's gone from the listings today...but I suspect he still has it and the ad just expired...I have his email! lol I hope he didn't scrap it, that would be a shame.

He wasn't sure how big the motor was but I suspect at least 7.5HP - 10HP given the size of the machine. It really was a gem, all the handles and knobs, even the turret wheel handles looked original with all black and one white knob. I was tempted to go get it and leave it in my yard with a tarp on it, but that wouldn't be right either. That 'ol gal is a beauty, seller said it was from the 40s which is arguably one of the best eras for machines. It looked older to me, but I was afraid to go look at it, the next thing I know I would be going to get my flatbed...lol

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm not working and pretty much tapped for cash, it might be sitting down at my yard as I type...

Cheers,
Alan (I have a machine problem)
 
I do this all the time, for even fewer parts on occasion.

Making something you have to screw attach the parts to is a waste of time for more than maybe a dozen pieces.
Make the holder fit a large bore collet so you can use the collet closer. Or if money is no object just buy a large face collet with closer and machine it directly.

If your machine does not take large face collets and closers like the 5c system (up to 7"), a 3 jaw chuck and soft jaws can be used, and shop made pie jaws can be screwed (or welded) to a smaller collet body. Though having a ring closer around the OD is a real advantage.

I don't have photos of square plate work I've done, but this photo shows a range of options for using a "master" collet, and a cheap shop made slug modified to take your part. (Among others) I have extended depth collets bored to take 1-3/4", and 2". I have those size bars on the shelf and cut off a slug when needed. The relief slots in these are just bandsawed. Quick and dirty. Or can be as fancy as you need and hardened steel to boot if desired. Though at that rate, it is probably worth buying a collet and machining it for dedicated use.

smt5cworkholding.jpg


smt
 
In similar fashion to what Stephen posted, I'd clamp the 3 jaw down to the mill table, bolt on a set of soft jaws and mill them to suit the square plates in the position you need, then remount it on the lathe.

Neat machine, by the way. I miss having a turret lathe handy.
 
IME for small runs the pocketed collet** is the way to go, run it the collet chuck for speed if you can, if not grab it in the 3 jaw.

Very quick and easy to make, at those tols' - rotab and hacksaw.

Even quicker and dirtier, turn an offset recess of across corners dim of part in a stub of bar.
 
Thanks all for the replies.

More food for thought and some great suggestions for this job.
Stephen, nice to know about the quantity limits for certain setups, valuable info indeed.
I have the collet chuck with 2.5" collet pads for the machine. I think I will make an adapter for that to hold the parts.

I was just looking in the tooling catalog and Ward made an air operated two jaw chuck that looks perfect for this type of job. A selection of soft jaws was available separately. Wish I had one of those chucks!!

If I remember I will post a pic of the setup, you guys are a great help.

Thanks
Michael


Alan, you don't have a machine problem, just a space problem! I didn't think I needed a turret lathe but I sure like this one....
 
For only 40 pieces I would use a 4 jaw chuck. Loosen only two adjacent jaws when changing parts(the same two each time). Not near as cool as the special work holders but should work with minimum setup.
 
For only 40 pieces I would use a 4 jaw chuck. Loosen only two adjacent jaws when changing parts(the same two each time). Not near as cool as the special work holders but should work with minimum setup.

That was my first thought as well.
 
I do this all the time, for even fewer parts on occasion.

Making something you have to screw attach the parts to is a waste of time for more than maybe a dozen pieces.
Make the holder fit a large bore collet so you can use the collet closer. Or if money is no object just buy a large face collet with closer and machine it directly.

smt,

That is very similar as I was thinking, but yours is executed and very nice! NIce looking parts, are those for hand planes? Nice looking parts, possibly bronze on those eye-bolts?

Alan, you don't have a machine problem, just a space problem! I didn't think I needed a turret lathe but I sure like this one....

That's true, but I settled for a screaming deal on an SB 10. :rolleyes5: I will be honest, on the way down to get it I was thinking to myself, "self, this is a much more manageable size than the Gisholt..." But after I got the SB and was on the way back I was thinking, "self, if the Gisholt was free, it would be worth saving.".:D But the reality is that money is pretty tight and the SB will hopefully get a turret, won't be the same as the Gisholt, that's for sure. But, OTOH, it is about 1/4 the size of the Gisholt.. The 10R has a few things going for it over the 9 for turret work, such as the through spindle and collet setup. 9 is limitied to 3C collets without a collet chuck, and the through spindle is almost twice as big, which would be nice for larger stock. Bottom line is that it's not as good as a specific turret machine but acceptable for what I'm doing.

Cheers,
Alan
 
Allen, thanks!

Yes, the "yellow metal" threaded parts in the photo are aluminum bronze (tough machining!). The knurled knobs are 360 brass, though. The assembly is indeed a plane iron (blade) adjuster.

There's a good point about using the 4 jaw for a few parts. It also allows using it for sawn parts that the outside dimensions might be more variable than would work well in a collet set up. I don't like the 4 jaw because the jaws can drift over a number of parts. But I do use the method and perhaps it is more appropriate to the OP's project here.

When I use the 4J, I always mark a witness mark on the 2 screws that are _not_ to be opened, so I can watch that they stay aligned as set. The other 2, then are the ones to open and close to change parts.

I have a couple 4 J chucks for the hardinges, I detest having to change from outside to inside jaws so at least 1 of each set up is a good idea. It has also occurred to me to add set screws and brass plugs to lock a setting on the one with OD jaws for just such operations, but I have not done so yet.

One of the ones that "got away" was a beautiful pristine 13" SB turret lathe with tooling. Just the right size, larger/stronger than a Hardinge, and had power feeds and threading to the bed turret. Not so monstrous as a Gisholt or WS. The guy who sold me my shaper had it and really urged me to buy it, but at the time ~20 yrs ago I did not have even the small sum asked. :(



smt
 
Allen, thanks!

Yes, the "yellow metal" threaded parts in the photo are aluminum bronze (tough machining!). The knurled knobs are 360 brass, though. The assembly is indeed a plane iron (blade) adjuster.

smt, your parts looks XLNT! I thought that was aluminum bronze as I work mostly with 932 and 454 has that look to it as yours do. I agree it is tough stuff to machine, but that stuff is really durable!

There's a good point about using the 4 jaw for a few parts. It also allows using it for sawn parts that the outside dimensions might be more variable than would work well in a collet set up. I don't like the 4 jaw because the jaws can drift over a number of parts. But I do use the method and perhaps it is more appropriate to the OP's project here.

When I use the 4J, I always mark a witness mark on the 2 screws that are _not_ to be opened, so I can watch that they stay aligned as set. The other 2, then are the ones to open and close to change parts.

The 4 jaw must be a time killer though, to setup each one if they need to be calibrated. Your setup with those collets is just the ticket for the OP, IMO.

I have a couple 4 J chucks for the hardinges, I detest having to change from outside to inside jaws so at least 1 of each set up is a good idea. It has also occurred to me to add set screws and brass plugs to lock a setting on the one with OD jaws for just such operations, but I have not done so yet.

Wonderful setup. Would love to see some of your planes. I have pondered making a plane, but have not done it yet. I make mostly handsaws, and in fact what I am getting turret work setup for, to do the split-nuts. I use 932 bronze for myself, but 360 brass for parts I sell. So far I haven't sold much and give away more than I sell. But it has all been a learning in progress.

One of the ones that "got away" was a beautiful pristine 13" SB turret lathe with tooling. Just the right size, larger/stronger than a Hardinge, and had power feeds and threading to the bed turret. Not so monstrous as a Gisholt or WS. The guy who sold me my shaper had it and really urged me to buy it, but at the time ~20 yrs ago I did not have even the small sum asked. :(

I have to decide if I'm going to keep the 10R and get a bed turret for it. I just got a bed turret for my SB 9A, and I might be able to shim the turret and get it up to center, but there are others in the wild so I might just look for one of those. The 10R with it's larger spindle is much better suited for turret work, at least in regard to the 10R or 9A. But I don't have a bed turret for it yet. I was looking for a Hardinge HLV when I ran across a Rivett 1020F (sorting out electrical). I now have the SB 9A, SB 10R, and the Rivett 1020F. One of the SBs will need to go...and it is unfortunately feeling like the 9A as the 10R is better suited for turret work. If I could find a bed turret that would fit the Rivett (and get the Rivett spinning ;) ), I might let loose of both SBs, but it's convenient to have a 2nd lathe, and especially if it is setup for turret work.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but is there any threads with pics of your hand planes? Parts look XLNT! :)

Cheers,
Alan
 
As it happens I have chosen the four jaw method as I needed to mount the four jaw anyway.
The tolerance is so loose on this part (+- .100) that I think I might just clamp tight with one jaw and have the other three for location only.
The two jaw I saw in the catalog gave me that idea. I think it will work fine and Stephen guessed right that the parts will be bandsawn and will vary a little bit anyway.

The new adapter for the four jaw has been started as I happened to have a perfect piece of 8" round stock.

Michael
 
Alan-

Thanks for the nice compliments!

I've posted pictures enough over the years that some are probably getting tired of it in hijack mode :) . OTOH, the dropbox moved once again, and all the links are broken anyways. sigh.

If you start a thread about your work or traditional tools or plane making I'll throw some photos at it. Or contact me by email ehmcofab at g mail dot com.

smt
 
Job done, many thanks for the ideas and suggestions.

The four jaw was just the ticket for these pieces. I did take some photo's and will post them later.

The forty pieces drilled and tapped took about 45 minutes or so, yeah, yeah I know I am a bit slow.

That doesn't count the 5 hours it took to make the adapter plate for the chuck! I am really slow.
That doesn't include the time spent cutting the L style mount off the back of the chuck that I did over a year ago. Apologies to the purists.

It is a very nice Cushman 12" that is in very good shape and looks great mounted on the Ward. Thankfully I have a hoist above the lathe.

I got quite a bit faster as I progressed through the pile. One thing I did right away was to tap at the same speed as the drill, so no stopping to lower speed, only stop to change out part. The stop/reverse/brake lever is so easy and perfect to operate that I could slow down the tapping and stop exactly where needed then reverse out. Nice.

Quite cool to put the old girl through the paces. I have a new appreciation for the design of these machines.
I also learned that it is important to have your tool bits extend the same amount from the turret, this makes it easier to move to the next tool and there is less back and forth of the turret saddle. I would love to try out a Capstan style machine for comparison.

Michael
 
I use round stock and mill the scape I need with the off set.
You can also make jig and a drill press for drilling the hole and I vise for tapping

Dave

Small job for a turret lathe but I need the practice.
40 pieces of 3/8" x 1.5" x1.5" mild steel that need to be drilled and tapped off-center.
My first thought is to drill and tap on the drill press and then I looked over at the now functioning Ward #7 lathe and
I wondered if there was an easy way to hold these pieces for drilling and tapping.

The tolerance on these is big, no need to even mention it, I just need to drill and tap them quickly.
I have a three jaw mounted on the lathe right now and I have a good size four jaw for the lathe but I would need to make the adapter plate so it could be mounted on the spindle. I also have a collet head with many sizes of collets just to let you know.

So do any of you old turret hands have any ideas?

Thanks in advance.

Michael

For pics of the lathe see this thread, http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...y/ward-7-turret-lathe-need-info-quick-237363/
 
Here is the pic finally!
The four jaw worked perfectly, the spacer is a quickly cut piece of 1.25" mdf.

Thanks for the ideas.

Michael
 

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