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Radial engine for a rolling mill

Asquith

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Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Location
Somerset, UK
3cyl01.jpg


1876 3-cylinder radial steam engine for a rolling mill at the Cyclops Ironworks, Openshaw, Manchester. Made by the Hydraulic Engineering Company of Chester, this was an unusually large version of the widely-used Peter Brotherhood design.

There was a 12 ton flywheel mounted on the square section of the shaft. 24” bore, 18” stroke. Normal operating speed 80 - 140 rpm, depending on the bar diameter being rolled.

Apparently it wasn’t very successful in the long run.
 
Thanks for the Thread

I really enjoy these kinds of Thread. The history of Machine Tools in particular.

Thanks for Posting
John
 
Any surviving? Working?

Never knew they made radials in steam, thought that was a internal combustion design developement because of higher crankshaft speeds needed more counterbalance. Once again the "dead men" had it on us again. Makes me wonder what was ever thought of, tried, and then lost again! I run into this in the heating trade all the time, steam heat is almost "lost" art. I see an old install and wonder how/why the hell they did do that! Even simple things like large diameter screw pipe still makes me stare in amazement. Not sure when hydraulic wrenches came into use, have always assumed they had to have used some type of chain tong or something simialar. I don't think I'll cath up to the curve.

Any idea for the attempt at radial, more power? smoother feed? faster feed? all the above? What was the typical boiler pressure?
Was this a simple or compound? ever an attempt at radial compound? Ever applied to locomotive? (besides the turbine) Wouldn't that have been a sight!! Make me wonder how that could have been tried.

Hope I'm not too much of a pest with the questions, steam is a favourite topic for me. I can never get enough of it.
 
Actually,

There have been quite a large number of engines built for steam and arranged "radially."

The 1889 East Boston sewage pumping engine of the Boston Metropolitan District Commission comes to mind. A three cylinder corliss type with cylinders at 120 degrees, it drove a large centrifugal pump that was situated below decks.

I saw the last public operation of this engine in the early 1990s.

This engine existed in operable condition up until I saw it. It was kept as a reserve in the event of failure of motor driven pumps. I'm not sure if it even now exists although I've seen the building is still there on my trips to Logan Airport.

The Deer Island Pumping Station Engines (original) were also radial corliss engines. These were literally in pieces when I was there.

Another true radial (i.e. both engines and pumps attached to a common crankpin) George H. Corliss installed a high service water pumping engine at Hope Pumping station in Providence, RI. This engine was innovative in that it apparently required no cushion chamber and yet could operate from a virtual standstill up to 5 million gallons per day. Not tremendously successful at least in part because of high steam consumption (which makes sense considering it's turndown ratio) it was installed and declared functional in 1874 and operated under various schemes until 1896. See http://users.ids.net/~newsm/steam-engines/corliss-hope.html

As Asquith shows us, the British have been much more aware of their industrial heritage and pro-active in the passage of laws preventing removal/destruction of such industrial artifacts.

Is Chestnut Hill Station (Boston) still there?

"Those who are not aware of the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."

Best,
Joe
 
I really hate to expose my ignorance on the subject of steam engines, but have to ask this question about this facinating cylinder arrangement. There seems to be no high/low pressure cylinder scheme. Was the engine only operated on high pressure steam? Did this make it less efficient than other types?

Dave
 
Doesnt look too brilliant a concept, Looks as though each cylinder was single acting only ? One would surmise, that she would be a steam eater big time, Also i would imagine maintenance would be a bit of a pain, Was the concept a possible view to space saving, or a development on The Hydraulic Engineering Cos. excellent hydraulic motors, To try steam for an experiment but didnt quite work out on steam ?
 
Gentlemen,

I confess that I don’t know much about the Peter Brotherhood radial steam engines (or their hydraulic motor counterpart). I know that they were widely used on all sorts of applications, including ships’ steering gear (on these engines, steam admission was controlled by sleeves around the crankshaft at one end - a distributor-type of arrangement). A Brotherhood engine was also used on this crane locomotive:-

craneloco01.jpg


The three cylinder engine, used for slewing, is just visible beneath the counterweight. However, although a good number of these crane engines were made for steelworks and shipyards, most seemed to favour two cylinder engines for slewing.

Radial engines were also adopted by the British Navy for torpedoes.

The hydraulic version was widely used, for example for powering capstans.

Back to steam, and the question of compounding, I came across the drawing below, and wonder whether the stepped pistons signify that it was a compound? I don’t know whether the steam could be passed from an HP cylinder directly to an LP, or whether a receiver would be required.

PB01.jpg


The Brotherhood radial arrangement had advantages of compactness, simplicity, and full enclosure. Being only single-acting was clearly a disadvantage, but, apparently, it greatly reduced the tendency to knock (because the direction of the load on the bearings was always in one direction).

Going back to the rolling mill engine, the supply pressure was only about 50 psi. It developed about 350 HP.
 
Why radial..

One thing that comes to mind, what with the huge flywheels used back then, Asquith says 12 tons in this case, the provision for large diameter had to be made anyway, but length could be cut down, compared to inline, two and more cylinders.

I can't see any compeling reason that this design could not have featured compound cylinders paired in single castings with two crank throws, say displaced 60°.

You probably wouldn't want to bury some of the engine in the floor though, as many flywheels were.

Bob
 
Good point about the length, Bob. The rolling mill engine only occupied a floor space of about 11 ft square. This might have been quite an important aspect, when you think that a lot of these old factories were rapidly trying to expand in quite confined spaces, hemmed in by rivers, canals, ancient streets, etc.
 
I don’t know much about the Brotherhood engines, but according to a couple of my books they were one of several single-acting high speed engines (approx. 300-500 rpm) developed in the 1870’s. The Brotherhood was widely used up into modern times (particularly as a torpedo engine). One reason for choosing single-acting was because until the 1890’s invention of pressure-fed oil to the crankshaft there seemed no way of running an engine quietly at high speed. Double-acting engines would knock as the steam caused load reversal on the big end bearing. In the case of the Brotherhood it looks like a clever design for other reasons as well, for example being very compact.

I know little about the Hydraulic Engineering Company of Chester, but it was a major supplier to the London Hydraulic Power Company. The LHP had large pumping stations which supplied hydraulic power networks in the Docklands area of London and in 1900 about 40% of wharves in the world’s greatest port were using hydraulic cranes. This accounted for maybe half of the hydraulic power supplied, the rest being used for movable bridges, locks, elevators, capstans etc.

Not sure if the rolling mill engine is the same as the smaller Brotherhood engines, but it looks similar. Here are some diagrams and text from the excellent “A Short History of the Steam Engine” by H.W. Dickinson, 1938

It is not unusual to find simple engines (ie not compounded) in rolling mill work, I think most of the George Watkins photos I have show reversing rolling mill engines with all high pressure cylinders (mostly three cylinders). A surviving example is the 12,000 hp River Don engine in Sheffield with its three 40” x 4’6” cylinders. However, the radial engine had a flywheel, so maybe it wasn’t used for reversing work?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/Brotherhoodsv.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/Brotherhoodev.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/Brotherhoodtext.jpg

edit: for some reason Photobucket keeps putting over-large pre-edited images here, I don't know why.
 
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Peter,

Thanks for the drawings and description of the radial engine. I was surprised to read that the smallest versions ran at 1000 rpm!

I note that the second drawing shows two-piece pistons. I wonder if the outer part could be removed for inspection after removing the ‘cylinder head’?

Regarding the Hydraulic Engineering Company of Chester, I don’t know much about them, either. The public hydraulic systems were quite something. Manchester Museum of Science and Industry has a good display of the topic, including a big hydraulic pump. Nearby is, or was (being currently closed for ’refurbishment’, presumably to make it more ‘accessible’) ‘The People’s History Museum’. This is an Edwardian hydraulic pumping station building, bereft of most of its equipment, but the overhead crane is still there, built by the versatile Hydraulic Engineering Company. For what it’s worth, here’s a rather boring photograph (clickable thumbnail):-

 








 
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