Monarch 16CY Questions

Hey gents,

Long time lurker, finally figured I'd register an account.

I'm a hobbyist / home shopper in the market for a lathe and came across a Monarch 16CY 18x30 from 1942 that appears to be in decent condition. The only thing I dislike about it is that it's configured as the low speed (487 RPM max) model.

I've read of guys on here and elsewhere replacing the motor sheave and belt to take it up to 1000 max, which apparently was an option available from the factory. But I emailed Monarch, and according to them no such parts are available for this. I want to have some ability to run smaller diameter work and / or use carbide tools, and the 487 rpm max is going to limit me there.

I also inquired about metric change gears, which I read of guys picking up and implementing - to which Monarch has the same reply: not available.

Is there anyone out there that can provide any guidance on this? I'm not afraid of attempting to home brew a solution, but at the same time I don't want to cause myself unnecessary amounts of work if parts are available that I'm not presently aware of. In general I would prefer to put a little money fixing up old iron like this than sinking that into any of the newer imports that have more options but are not nearly as well built.

I appreciate any information / opinions you guys could share. Thank you.

-Chuck

Mountainman77 said:

Hey gents,

Long time lurker, finally figured I'd register an account.

I'm a hobbyist / home shopper in the market for a lathe and came across a Monarch 16CY 18x30 from 1942 that appears to be in decent condition. The only thing I dislike about it is that it's configured as the low speed (487 RPM max) model.

I've read of guys on here and elsewhere replacing the motor sheave and belt to take it up to 1000 max, which apparently was an option available from the factory. But I emailed Monarch, and according to them no such parts are available for this. I want to have some ability to run smaller diameter work and / or use carbide tools, and the 487 rpm max is going to limit me there.

I also inquired about metric change gears, which I read of guys picking up and implementing - to which Monarch has the same reply: not available.

Is there anyone out there that can provide any guidance on this? I'm not afraid of attempting to home brew a solution, but at the same time I don't want to cause myself unnecessary amounts of work if parts are available that I'm not presently aware of. In general I would prefer to put a little money fixing up old iron like this than sinking that into any of the newer imports that have more options but are not nearly as well built.

I appreciate any information / opinions you guys could share. Thank you.

-Chuck

Click to expand...

"Small parts?" Even 1,000 RPM is rather limiting.

Pennsylvania based, pickin's are better within reasonable range than lots of other places.

Might want to keep looking?

Mountainman77 said:

Hey gents,

Long time lurker, finally figured I'd register an account.

I'm a hobbyist / home shopper in the market for a lathe and came across a Monarch 16CY 18x30 from 1942 that appears to be in decent condition. The only thing I dislike about it is that it's configured as the low speed (487 RPM max) model.

I've read of guys on here and elsewhere replacing the motor sheave and belt to take it up to 1000 max, which apparently was an option available from the factory. But I emailed Monarch, and according to them no such parts are available for this. I want to have some ability to run smaller diameter work and / or use carbide tools, and the 487 rpm max is going to limit me there.

I also inquired about metric change gears, which I read of guys picking up and implementing - to which Monarch has the same reply: not available.

Is there anyone out there that can provide any guidance on this? I'm not afraid of attempting to home brew a solution, but at the same time I don't want to cause myself unnecessary amounts of work if parts are available that I'm not presently aware of. In general I would prefer to put a little money fixing up old iron like this than sinking that into any of the newer imports that have more options but are not nearly as well built.

I appreciate any information / opinions you guys could share. Thank you.

-Chuck

Click to expand...

Hi, Chuck,

Some years ago, when I was involved in a machine business, we re-speeded a 1940's vintage 487 rpm Monarch to 1000 (approx). I called Monarch, which was then the 'real' Monarch works, for advice, and was told that we could re-speed up to 1000 'with Monarch's blessings' on that model of headstock.

All that was needed was to measure the clutch pulley, figure the motor pulley diameter for the correct ratio, get a standard 4-groove sheave with a taper-lock hub, of the nearest size under the theoretically correct diameter, and a set of matched belts to suit. I don't remember, exactly, but I think we got a 960-ish top speed, close enough.

One thing we did as a precaution was to have the motor apart, and send the rotor, with the new sheave installed, out to a specialist firm for balancing as an assembly.

That said, a 16" Monarch is really not the best investment, if you have only small parts work to do. If what you really need is a Monarch EE, find some way to get the capital together to get one, and you'll be much happier in the long run.

cheers

Carla

Also remember to get a supply of ear plugs for listening to the left end gear train at those speeds

Its a marvelous tool room, lathe (with lead screw reverse on apron) made for HSS

Thanks for the replies everyone.

To be clear, I’m not looking for a lathe only to do small work. Case in point: Ive got work in the shop at the moment involving parts with an 8” diameter. I simply wanted to inquire about extending the capabilities of something with a tremendous amount of rigidity (like this 16CY) to give me me a bit of crossover until I can pick up something smaller (like the 10EE mentioned) if need be. I realize that this may not be the best lathe for extremely intricate work on small diameter stock, but figured something mid sized like this might be a better place to start in terms of capability regarding stock diameter, depth of cut, overall rigidity, etc. based on the type of stuff I typically work on.

If you go for the CY can email a manual scan of the very similar CW if wanted

Mountainman77 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone.

To be clear, I’m not looking for a lathe only to do small work. Case in point: Ive got work in the shop at the moment involving parts with an 8” diameter. I simply wanted to inquire about extending the capabilities of something with a tremendous amount of rigidity (like this 16CY) to give me me a bit of crossover until I can pick up something smaller (like the 10EE mentioned) if need be. I realize that this may not be the best lathe for extremely intricate work on small diameter stock, but figured something mid sized like this might be a better place to start in terms of capability regarding stock diameter, depth of cut, overall rigidity, etc. based on the type of stuff I typically work on.

Click to expand...

Mountainman77 said:

Thanks for the replies everyone.

To be clear, I’m not looking for a lathe only to do small work. Case in point: Ive got work in the shop at the moment involving parts with an 8” diameter. I simply wanted to inquire about extending the capabilities of something with a tremendous amount of rigidity (like this 16CY) to give me me a bit of crossover until I can pick up something smaller (like the 10EE mentioned) if need be. I realize that this may not be the best lathe for extremely intricate work on small diameter stock, but figured something mid sized like this might be a better place to start in terms of capability regarding stock diameter, depth of cut, overall rigidity, etc. based on the type of stuff I typically work on.

Click to expand...

If you have 8" work even now and then, it is a good fit. 1000-1500 RPM top would be better-yet.

You might do 8" in "some" overall shapes on a 10EE. A tad over 12" can be squeezed in.
Even then, the swing over cross is not enough if it is very long, and the center-to-center 20" is pitifully short for LOTS of things - especially once much of anything at all (drill chuck or tap holder) is hung out of the TS bore.

"Sweet spot" and covered by most makers seems to be 14" - 16" swing and 40" or better between centers.

Pennsylvania being one of the better places to be sitting as to scouting options on used manual lathes, I'd at least do some intensive searching before jumping.

Monarchist said:

If you have 8" work even now and then, it is a good fit. 1000-1500 RPM top would be better-yet.

You might do 8" in "some" overall shapes on a 10EE. A tad over 12" can be squeezed in.
Even then, the swing over cross is not enough if it is very long, and the center-to-center 20" is pitifully short for LOTS of things - especially once much of anything at all (drill chuck or tap holder) is hung out of the TS bore.

"Sweet spot" and covered by most makers seems to be 14" - 16" swing and 40" or better between centers.

Pennsylvania being one of the better places to be sitting as to scouting options on used manual lathes, I'd at least do some intensive searching before jumping.

Click to expand...

Yeah I've been looking off and on for a few years now. Most of what comes up in my immediate area are smaller south bend / atlas lathes. I might end up with a 10EE at some point, but I feel like an engine lathe is a better machine to start with for my purposes. I'm targeting something in the 14-16 x 30-40 range with some heft to it so that I can peel material off when I need to. The bulk of my experience is working on beat up Jet engine lathes in a shared workspace where other operators really didn't care to maintain or use the machine properly. The one good thing (maybe only good thing) about this experience is that it's pushing me to look at older iron. Newer machines might have more options built in, but rigidity seems to be a problem regardless of size and they're not built to last.

johnoder said:

If you go for the CY can email a manual scan of the very similar CW if wanted

Click to expand...

Thank you sir I appreciate it

Just a general update - I went to look at the machine over the weekend and based on what I could see, it appears to be in good shape for its age. No visible marking / scoring / pitting on the ways and the gear train was quiet in every gear. There's a handful of things that need addressed however - coolant pump motor appears to be missing, the sheet metal cover behind the spindle apparently had no thru-hole to allow chip evacuation so chips would collect on the feed gears (unknown if there's any damage, but they were making noise during operation - he claims he didn't get them meshed back together right after he cleaned them), and the cross-slide seems to be sticky for whatever reason. Not sure if it's just adjusted tight, dirty, or what....worst case scenario it needs scraped back in but that doesn't really scare me.

In general it needs a little work but I think it could be a hell of a machine once it's fixed up. I love the idea of saving a machine like this and sending it forward another 76 years or more. Anyone have an opinion as to the fair market price for something like this would be? He is asking $3900 as-is.

Gonna mull it over for a few days, but the main problem is figuring out how I would move it. Due to the building layout, I need a tow truck with a tilt bed / winch. The general plan would be to palletize the machine and pull it up onto the bed. The only viable exit for the building is a pretty steep ramp that pretty much rules out any hope of using a forklift. The gentleman selling has a forklift but it's not big enough to lift the lathe. Has anyone had any luck finding a place to rent a tilt bed tow truck from? A cursory search on google yielded no results.

Thanks for any help / advice

Chuck

Seems way too much. I gave $2500 for my one owner August 1946 CW16 X 102 and thought that was high.

A $3900 CW would have to be just about perfect and tooled to the hilt - especially a 76 year old

Mountainman77 said:

I'm targeting something in the 14-16 x 30-40 range with some heft to it so that I can peel material off when I need to.
.
.
rigidity seems to be a problem regardless of size and they're not built to last.
.
.

He is asking $3900 as-is.

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Dunno. "Condition, condition, condition"... limited top-end RPM?

The go-fetch, Coastal Dogpatch back to Sterling/Dulles was an extra cost, of course, but for less money, an altogether more modern 7 HP, 14" X 30" 3,000 + RPM capable machine ended up under my own roof:

Procyon Machine

It has been cleaning up nicely. Not enough wear to need a re-scrape. Most "still to do" work is on the wiring, motor and hydraulic Vari-drive.

Otherwise? It won't even need a full repainting.

Mountainman77 said:

In general it needs a little work but I think it could be a hell of a machine once it's fixed up. I love the idea of saving a machine like this and sending it forward another 76 years or more. Anyone have an opinion as to the fair market price for something like this would be? He is asking $3900 as-is.

Click to expand...

I paid $1000 for my 1942 16x54 CY lathe with taper attachment. That machine better be close to pristine and/or *loaded* with good to YOU tooling to be worth that sort of money.

To be honest I haven't found the low top speed to be much of a limiting factor but I only use the lathe for 50mm and up work, I've a smaller lathe for the fine stuff. The biggest limiting factor to me is the tiny 1.5" spindle bore.

PDW

Especially in areas like Pennsylvania I thought that big, very old machines would command only scrap price plus value of re-sellable accessories. If it were close-to-pristine conditions, working out of the box without even minor fixes and well accessorized would be worth between half and two third of the asking price. With minimal set of accessories, I'd say at most $200 over scrap.

Paolo

Aside from being a Monarch, it doesn't really have much going for it. I kind of cringe when somebody puts that kind of price on something, one thing to be high, another to be more than double.
For the time it was built, it is pretty slow.

It's definitely not in pristine condition, nor does it come with much in the way of tooling.

I think I'm going to keep looking. Thank you all for the replies.