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MT3 for Wards 10" lathe

yancypup

Plastic
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Hello, I have a circa 1940s Montgomery Wards 10" lathe built by Logan (I think it is very similar to a Logan 200). The book says the headstock spindle is MT3 but every MT3 I put in is way too small. It goes far into the headstock. Is there such a thing as an extra long MT3? What am I missing? Thanks in advance, Dan.
 
Well there sure is such a thing as a spindle that was modified, possibly because it got dinged up and was re-cut. Maybe even recut to a different taper, like B&S,

It surely came from the factory as an MT3. It's been a long time since then.

How much "too far" does it go in?

When it is in, does it seem to fit snug with no ability to rattle or tip?
 
If tailstock is MT3,
Then
How is the tailstock fit?


Else

What do you have (taper bit, or adapter, or crotch pad, etc) that does fit?

While I might not chop up a good drill bit and rig up a grinder (on compound slide) to install a taper on the stub, it would be one way to create the item needed.

Try ebay
 
Tailstock is MT2 on these Logan units. Headstock is MT3 (or was when it left factory). Just like the similar SB units.

See questions asked in my earlier post.
 
Well there sure is such a thing as a spindle that was modified, possibly because it got dinged up and was re-cut. Maybe even recut to a different taper, like B&S,

It surely came from the factory as an MT3. It's been a long time since then.

How much "too far" does it go in?

When it is in, does it seem to fit snug with no ability to rattle or tip?

Thanks for the quick response. I put the MT3 fitting in (it is a MT3 to MT2 adapter) and the front lip sat 3.871 inches back from the front of the spindle. It seems to seat OK at that depth, I tried wiggling it around with screwdrivers coming in from both ends of the spindle and it seemed tight as near as I can tell. It's like the taper is right but it's 4 inches too short.

The mouth of the spindle is about 1.027" or so. My MT2 piece is 0.967" at the front and 0.792" at the back. The length is 3.850".

I have an ER collet holder that is supposed to be MT4 and it won't even enter the spindle. It's marked MK4 ER25 5/8"-11. The smallest end on this is 1.045" which is indeed bigger than my 1.027" spindle opening.

I'm not a machinist, I just bought this lathe and am trying to get it up and running and could use all the help I can get. I'm taking a lathe course at night and I'll try to run it by my instructor but he's pretty young and might not know about old stuff like this. Dan.
 
A work around is to not worry about it and instead chuck up a handy piece of steel and by using the compound rest machine a point on that piece - preferably 30 degrees off center line to make a 60 degree included point. Works fine for turning between centers by resting tail of lathe dog on a chuck jaw

With that piece in the lathe between centers you can do things like get the tail stock where it needs to be to have the least possible taper on the piece after machining

Handy generic info if needed

http://campkahler.com/files/How_to_Run_a_Lathe_SB_1of2.pdf
http://campkahler.com/files/How_to_Run_a_Lathe_SB_2of2.pdf
 
A work around is to not worry about it and instead chuck up a handy piece of steel and by using the compound rest machine a point on that piece - preferably 30 degrees off center line to make a 60 degree included point. Works fine for turning between centers by resting tail of lathe dog on a chuck jaw

With that piece in the lathe between centers you can do things like get the tail stock where it needs to be to have the least possible taper on the piece after machining

Handy generic info if needed

http://campkahler.com/files/How_to_Run_a_Lathe_SB_1of2.pdf
http://campkahler.com/files/How_to_Run_a_Lathe_SB_2of2.pdf

Yes, I think you may be right. I have a copy of that Southbend book that came with the lathe but I haven't read it yet. The pictures in the beginning look a great deal like the machine I got. I've only had it less than two weeks and have spent the time cleaning the grunge off and getting it oiled up and some minor adjustments. I don't think it had seen oil (or been run) in a few decades. Dan.
 
Sounds more like you got ahold of an MT2 taper and yes, that will drop way in.

An MY3 pretty much CANNOT go that far, because there would be hardly any wall thickness left in the spindle, They only have a 3/4" or so hole through.

But an MT2 would do what you say.

The turned center works very well, and the chuck is a good dog driver.
 
The adapter I got measures 0.9670" (although I might be in error here) while the spec for MT3 I got off the web is 0.9380. The spec for a MT2 is supposed to be 0.700 so there is no way it is an MT2. And an MT4 is just a tad too big at 1.2310" (my spindle end is 1.027"). I'm somewhere in the twilight zone, I bet Rod Sterling knows the piece I need. Dan.
 
Sounds more like you got ahold of an MT2 taper and yes, that will drop way in.

An MY3 pretty much CANNOT go that far, because there would be hardly any wall thickness left in the spindle, They only have a 3/4" or so hole through.

But an MT2 would do what you say.

The turned center works very well, and the chuck is a good dog driver.

I'm leaning more and more toward the turned center. I did not think of the chuck for a dog driver. I also have a faceplate that should work. Thanks! Dan.
 
If tailstock is MT3,
Then
How is the tailstock fit?


Else

What do you have (taper bit, or adapter, or crotch pad, etc) that does fit?

While I might not chop up a good drill bit and rig up a grinder (on compound slide) to install a taper on the stub, it would be one way to create the item needed.

Try ebay

The tailstock is MT2 and MT2 centers fit perfectly. I do have that MT4 ER25 collet holder and I'm wondering how hard it would be to turn it down to fit. I've been using a watchmakers lathe for years and they use 8mm (sometimes 10) collets and I have to say I really like collets. On a watchmaker lathe they are very precise (they have to be to turn 0.1mm wheel pivots and even smaller).
 
The tailstock is MT2 and MT2 centers fit perfectly. I do have that MT4 ER25 collet holder and I'm wondering how hard it would be to turn it down to fit. I've been using a watchmakers lathe for years and they use 8mm (sometimes 10) collets and I have to say I really like collets. On a watchmaker lathe they are very precise (they have to be to turn 0.1mm wheel pivots and even smaller).

I suspect the use of an "adaptor" as reference is preventing sight of the full picture, here.

A full length MT 3 dead centre (and you do NOT need a "live" one for the HS) should sit much further out at its tip. That is generally further out than a # 2 MT in a #2 to # 3 adapter, too.

You need not invest in a high-grade Riten or Stark center to confirm or no. A few bucks to one of the bargain tool suppliers gets you a serviceable-enough MT 3 Dead Center at low risk of waste.

For the ER on MT4? Don't waste your time trying to turn that tail on a Logan. Get one that just fits. That's a preservation of accuracy issue as much as hardness.

It has to be the "Mothership" after all, for collets normally spec'd as delivering average TIR to rather good numbers over their large collapse range.

PS: That wide collet range is attractive on the ER system. I don't have the for my kitche sink, yet, but ER-40 and ER-20 for just about everything else.

As... a "last resort" that needs but two sets of collets for the entire shop.

Don't confuse those with conventional "spring" collets though. Made originally for TOOL holding, rather than WORK holding, they can be relatively slow to cycle.

An ER wants scrupulous cleaning, then a fair-decent match to its specified torquing.

If you have a hundred widgets to turn, you'll soon prefer a "C" family collet that fits your lathe over the annoyance of the ER.
 
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For the Wards, there probably are NO OTHER TAPERS than the MT3. Any specials would have been for turret machines which Wards did not sell, as far as I know, and I remember seeing the Wards machines in the catalogs back 50 or so years.

So... unless the taper was recut, OR the test piece you have is not MT3, dunno what could be the case here.

An adapter like that sits about flush on mine. I do not know how anything could get nearly 4" further back.

I'm going with the idea that the taper was recut for some unknown reason. If so, be careful, there cannot be much wall thickness left.

As a tie-breaker, look into the spindle end. There should be a smooth straight taper running from the lip of the spindle opening back about 4", and at that point, the taper should disappear in a hole of about 3/4" diameter (25/32") that is straight and goes back all the way through the spindle.

I am betting that you will find a different setup in there, assuming that you really do have a bog-standard MT3 to MT2 adapter.
 
When I look in the front of the spindle, there is a taper but it ends abruptly with a step before resuming a zero taper to the end of the spindle. You're saying it should be a smooth transition therefore it must have been recut. I do know that way back when a gunsmith owned this lathe. I wonder if he had a special purpose. Thanks! Dan.
 
When I look in the front of the spindle, there is a taper but it ends abruptly with a step before resuming a zero taper to the end of the spindle. You're saying it should be a smooth transition therefore it must have been recut. I do know that way back when a gunsmith owned this lathe. I wonder if he had a special purpose. Thanks! Dan.

If I had a "mystery" of that sort, I'd cheat.

Coat it with a thin film of oil, cast a Plaster of Paris slug over a rod core as handle that I could haul-out. Once I could get a good look at without neckstrain, carry around the shop matching up to this or that, it all might come clear.

Measurements off it would be a tad crude, but all it would have to do is get me into the right zone to take better ones directly to confirm.

I don't think this is what you have, but just as an example:

Suppose that gunsmith had a mill with B&S taper spindle and had B&S taper tooling or collets he wanted to be able to also use on his lathe? B&S looks like Morse - until you measure or compare side-by side. NEITHER Morse nor B&S are exactly beloved as collet systems go. But both do work well-enough to earn their keep.
 
A pic of your spindle and your apdadter set up will help a lot...maybe not as positive identification but likely enough for one of the guys to tell if it looks modified...as JST noted there just isn't much meat for someone to cut a new taper on the spindle end so it would likely be obvious to someone that is familiar with the Logan/MW

For that matter post a pic of the whole machine just in case something weirder is going on...:)

Ps- maybe not a Logzn at all??? MW sold other makes branded by them also...Logan is just the most common MW lathe.
 








 
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