=NEW= Another antique lathe ID thread - I need your expertise!

[Stormbringer MM]

Greetings Everyone,

I recently purchased an old lathe from a shop in Saint John, New Brunswick Canada. After about 4 weeks of perusing this forum, lathes.co.uk and hours dedicated to google image searches I can only come up with theories on to its origin. I am not sure if it's a lathe that may have been assembled through the use of multiple parts (eg, the chuck is an old Walker-Turner but im quite sure the rest of the lathe has no business with Walker-Turner or any of its affiliates from back in the day).

***Updated thanks to a user comment***
Dimensions approximately 42" long by 12" wide (at max width including gears)
****End update***

This might have been an old treadle lathe converted to electric as it did come with an electric motor but I can only find similar designs on treadle lathes or early micro lathes. For example the legs look like something from "The leader" found here: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/small-antique-lathe-id-288809/ (image 1, the leg's are "M" shaped).

The bed seems to be something more like this very old Star Tools lathe - notice the similar design here: http://www.blacksmithandmachineshop...off-the-trailer-gearing-ornate-to-the-end.jpg

Anyways I'm at a loss, so I need to ask this great community for some help. I've reached out to tony from lathes.co.uk but dont really expect him to reply, im sure he's insanely busy - thanks in advance.

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Here are a couple more photos

 

[cyanidekid]

give us some sense of scale here, I cant tell if it is 15" or 3' long. either way, I doubt it was treadle powered. looks like line drive to me (overhead shafting, powered by water or steam, later, electric).

stylistically, looks like 1850-1870? just a guess.

 

[cncFireman]

Going to be tough to identify as there we're many lathes around the middle 19th century that were being built with no identification. Also some builders were little known and may have only built a few machine tools on the side of whatever bigger business they were involved with. I will bring up another unknown lathe that has similar legs that is an unknown when I find the thread.

Found it scroll down to like the 7th post for saved pictures of the lathe. It is just another unknown ornate lathe with short M style legs.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/another-mystery-lathe-262646/

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Thanks for your quick reply, it's about 42 inches long by 12 inches wide. Apologies for not including this earlier.

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Thanks for this I just took a very quick look - in the shop at the moment about to start some- work I'll look in more detail later. As I undergo the restoration process I'll update with photos to see if I can help solve this mystery. Thanks again

 

[Danny VanVoorn]

I can't give any info on what make or model it is but it looks like a capable lathe and may make accurate parts still. I did notice the holes in the spindle caps and wonder if there is supposed to be oil reservoirs in them? In any event it is an interesting machine.
Dan

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Going to be tough to identify as there we're many lathes around the middle 19th century that were being built with no identification. Also some builders were little known and may have only built a few machine tools on the side of whatever bigger business they were involved with. I will bring up another unknown lathe that has similar legs that is an unknown when I find the thread.

Found it scroll down to like the 7th post for saved pictures of the lathe. It is just another unknown ornate lathe with short M style legs.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/another-mystery-lathe-262646/

Great memory you have to find that! The design of the bed and legs are very similar along with what I assume is a massive reduction gear at the end. Thanks for searching this out.

 

[Joe in NH]

Offhand it looks like a Worcester, MA construct from before the Civil War. The style of the bed moulding (Ogee ovalo with curlycue) is the primary date/location key. The planing of the headstock along the sides is typical of Worcester time and place. The external gears on the apron may put it "shortly" after the 1853 Worcester Mechanics Hall show where Thayer & Houghton knocked their socks off with their leadscrew/feedscrew arrangement. (All makers - almost to a shop - plagiarized the T&H design - to the point where some confusion exists today regarding origin of subsequent improvements for upwards of 20 years afterwards.)

Hmm. Maybe a "New Haven" production? Further south tended to hold onto the external gears (They lasted almost into the 20th Century down in Philadelphia) and New Haven was an early morning's train ride from Worcester. Ideas/style convention tended to travel by train and New York City was kind of a "cultural dam" to New England style/build ideas passing further south. AND they competed with Worcester as a "satellite" center to Worcester's "silicon valley" machine tool status in 1860.

I would guess this one would be a "benchtop" lathe - although at that time benchtop didn't have the meaning (or the bench) that we think of. Benches could have been made special for this lathe and only 24" tall. My Ames-Chicopee lathe (it shows at Tony's site http://www.lathes.co.uk/ames-chicopee/) when on legs is UNCOMFORTABLY user high when placed on a normal 30" bench height. I plan on a dedicated stand made up of 8x8 oak timber (or something similarly weighty)

Yours interesting though.

Joe in NH

 

[Stormbringer MM]

I think I may have found the original colour, the previous thread link discussed an early Putnam style lathe, this colour is consistent with what I've seen of early Putname lathes on vintage machinery however it's a long shot from being "evidence" of identification.

Link to that colour and lathe here Photo Index - Putnam Machine Co. - 14" metal lathe | VintageMachinery.org

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Offhand it looks like a Worcester, MA construct from before the Civil War. The style of the bed moulding (Ogee ovalo with curlycue) is the primary date/location key. The planing of the headstock along the sides is typical of Worcester time and place. The external gears on the apron may put it "shortly" after the 1853 Worcester Mechanics Hall show where Thayer & Houghton knocked their socks off with their leadscrew/feedscrew arrangement. (All makers - almost to a shop - plagiarized the T&H design - to the point where some confusion exists today regarding origin of subsequent improvements for upwards of 20 years afterwards.)

Hmm. Maybe a "New Haven" production? Further south tended to hold onto the external gears (They lasted almost into the 20th Century down in Philadelphia) and New Haven was an early morning's train ride from Worcester. Ideas/style convention tended to travel by train and New York City was kind of a "cultural dam" to New England style/build ideas passing further south. AND they competed with Worcester as a "satellite" center to Worcester's "silicon valley" machine tool status in 1860.

I would guess this one would be a "benchtop" lathe - although at that time benchtop didn't have the meaning (or the bench) that we think of. Benches could have been made special for this lathe and only 24" tall. My Ames-Chicopee lathe (it shows at Tony's site http://www.lathes.co.uk/ames-chicopee/) when on legs is UNCOMFORTABLY user high when placed on a normal 30" bench height. I plan on a dedicated stand made up of 8x8 oak timber (or something similarly weighty)

Yours interesting though.

Joe in NH

Joe thanks a lot for your input, ill check Tony's site now with your new info. Thanks again for your help and detailed reply!

 

[Joe in NH]

Um. Mr. Martell's putnam is NOT like any putnam has ever appeared - except his.

I will grant a nice restoration based on what he started with, but metallic blue gloss is NOT the paint for this lathe.

Or yours.

I've written before on the color palette of Civil War era lathes. I'd find it now for reference except I can write it quicker & easier than searching for my previous.

Prior to the 1850s, machine tool colors tended to be emulative of stone or marble. Light grey, flat black (slate), white (marble), tan(sandstone.) Joseph Rowe in his "English & American Tool Builders" book describes the period "excess" of adornment as doric columns, plinths, cornice & ovalo as "emulative of stonework."

As the 1850s progressed, colors tended to "earthen hues." This mostly a matter of economy in paint as "muddy" colors were easier to formulate (paint grinding was an art practiced at that time) and a single paint pot could be kept going for a LONG time by addition of this, and that, and whatever was handy. You can almost think "paint tailings" which used to be available for cheap painting of anything that required paint for protection, but color was secondary.

Two colors might be used. A darker hue on major components (bed, legs) and a lighter color on "add-ons" (headstock, tailstock, apron/saddle) with only hue differences between them. Or the reverse of this scheme. Think paint-pot addition.

Tan and mustard were common. Green in "aqua." Black and white less so. Light grey hung on a bit longer possibly with black highlights on handles and wheels.

My circa 1860 Shepard, Lathe & Co. lathe is currently painted green as someone's idea of how it should look, but in reality it was originally a sort of buff or mustard color. Evidences of the original paint show on the backside and interior of the legs.

And the paint would be quite "flat." Gloss paint rarely used as it was expensive when it could be bought. (example: Japan Black or Red, both imported and needful to expensively round Cape Horn in a sailing ship in 1860. ) I would characterize my lathe coloring as "typical" for the earlier ogee molded bed, a detail yours also shows.

About the time of the Civil War green and red became color choices. Most think of an early lathe as being of forest green color and many were repainted during this period to bring them to period commonality. Like us, shop owners attempted to have an up to date and clean shop and paint achieved both of these objectives with the swipe of a brush. This I think where my green painted but earlier lathe came from.

Original Pratt & Whitney machines (1867ish) were painted green or less commonly barn red. I have an 1874 P&W 6" shaper which is black, but the Newall Patented Vice used on it was painted red. (Transitional?)

Starting with Pratt & Whitney in 1869 the color black became more common. Green faded out for other builders and by perhaps 1876, ALL machine tools were painted black. The 1876 exhibition in Philadelphia exhibited "high style" mostly black painted machines. Some pains were taken in appearance such as the gloss paints I mentioned, and pinstriping. The exhibition was a trade/sales show as well as a world brag session.

The black for most commonly available machine tools continued quite non-glossy. And for many, including Pratt & Whitney, the black was a relatively cheap paint - although a fair amount of attention was paid to underfilling the coating to smooth the finish. A Pratt & Whitney 4' bed planer formerly of my ownership was dated to about 1877 and while the machine was made well and very precisely, the paint was kind of crummy and cheap - and starting to dust off as grey powder.

I'll finish the story with an 1882 Machine Tool Exhibition held in Boston about the time that Pratt & Whitney changed from their brass cast nameplates to a "cast-in" name on the side or bed of the tool: Pratt & Whitney showed up with DARK GREY painting scheme which was the talk of the industry for the next year - a year in which everyone else followed coming out with grey machine tools.

Appearance is EVERYTHING in machine tools - despite what period literature says about accuracy.

I suppose like buying a car is today?

Search around some more on that lathe bed and you may find other color...

Good luck!

Joe in NH

 

[cncFireman]

Other than the unknown lathe that was found in Idaho I knew I saw another lathe with the same M style leg design. Then a light bulb went off and I remembered it was not a lathe but a planer. I searched thru old planer pictures and found the one I was thinking of which is a Putnam planet. Not that your lathe was built by Putnam but dials in the era and region of design. Your tailstock also matches the tailstock of Putnam wood lathes.

Later Putnam wood lathe.

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Other than the unknown lathe that was found in Idaho I knew I saw another lathe with the same M style leg design. Then a light bulb went off and I remembered it was not a lathe but a planer. I searched thru old planer pictures and found the one I was thinking of which is a Putnam planet. Not that your lathe was built by Putnam but dials in the era and region of design. Your tailstock also matches the tailstock of Putnam wood lathes.

Later Putnam wood lathe.

Hey cncFireman, thanks for your help in trying to track this down - I appreciate your post. I'm trying to piece together observations like yours and Joe's

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Um. Mr. Martell's putnam is NOT like any putnam has ever appeared - except his.

I will grant a nice restoration based on what he started with, but metallic blue gloss is NOT the paint for this lathe.

Or yours.

I've written before on the color palette of Civil War era lathes. I'd find it now for reference except I can write it quicker & easier than searching for my previous.

Prior to the 1850s, machine tool colors tended to be emulative of stone or marble. Light grey, flat black (slate), white (marble), tan(sandstone.) Joseph Rowe in his "English & American Tool Builders" book describes the period "excess" of adornment as doric columns, plinths, cornice & ovalo as "emulative of stonework."

As the 1850s progressed, colors tended to "earthen hues." This mostly a matter of economy in paint as "muddy" colors were easier to formulate (paint grinding was an art practiced at that time) and a single paint pot could be kept going for a LONG time by addition of this, and that, and whatever was handy. You can almost think "paint tailings" which used to be available for cheap painting of anything that required paint for protection, but color was secondary.

Two colors might be used. A darker hue on major components (bed, legs) and a lighter color on "add-ons" (headstock, tailstock, apron/saddle) with only hue differences between them. Or the reverse of this scheme. Think paint-pot addition.

Tan and mustard were common. Green in "aqua." Black and white less so. Light grey hung on a bit longer possibly with black highlights on handles and wheels.

My circa 1860 Shepard, Lathe & Co. lathe is currently painted green as someone's idea of how it should look, but in reality it was originally a sort of buff or mustard color. Evidences of the original paint show on the backside and interior of the legs.

And the paint would be quite "flat." Gloss paint rarely used as it was expensive when it could be bought. (example: Japan Black or Red, both imported and needful to expensively round Cape Horn in a sailing ship in 1860. ) I would characterize my lathe coloring as "typical" for the earlier ogee molded bed, a detail yours also shows.

About the time of the Civil War green and red became color choices. Most think of an early lathe as being of forest green color and many were repainted during this period to bring them to period commonality. Like us, shop owners attempted to have an up to date and clean shop and paint achieved both of these objectives with the swipe of a brush. This I think where my green painted but earlier lathe came from.

Original Pratt & Whitney machines (1867ish) were painted green or less commonly barn red. I have an 1874 P&W 6" shaper which is black, but the Newall Patented Vice used on it was painted red. (Transitional?)

Starting with Pratt & Whitney in 1869 the color black became more common. Green faded out for other builders and by perhaps 1876, ALL machine tools were painted black. The 1876 exhibition in Philadelphia exhibited "high style" mostly black painted machines. Some pains were taken in appearance such as the gloss paints I mentioned, and pinstriping. The exhibition was a trade/sales show as well as a world brag session.

The black for most commonly available machine tools continued quite non-glossy. And for many, including Pratt & Whitney, the black was a relatively cheap paint - although a fair amount of attention was paid to underfilling the coating to smooth the finish. A Pratt & Whitney 4' bed planer formerly of my ownership was dated to about 1877 and while the machine was made well and very precisely, the paint was kind of crummy and cheap - and starting to dust off as grey powder.

I'll finish the story with an 1882 Machine Tool Exhibition held in Boston about the time that Pratt & Whitney changed from their brass cast nameplates to a "cast-in" name on the side or bed of the tool: Pratt & Whitney showed up with DARK GREY painting scheme which was the talk of the industry for the next year - a year in which everyone else followed coming out with grey machine tools.

Appearance is EVERYTHING in machine tools - despite what period literature says about accuracy.

I suppose like buying a car is today?

Search around some more on that lathe bed and you may find other color...

Good luck!

Joe in NH

This is going to be a multi year restore project for me because of my very young family, I will refer back to this thread when its time to re-paint. I like it because it's ornate, and it appears to at least be usable in my shop, will give my shop some character!

 

[Stormbringer MM]

So I've begun the restore process and noticed a couple of things on the traveller. Looks like a a few modifications have been done over the many years of its life. When I can I'll upload photos when I can.

 

[Stormbringer MM]

Here are some pictures of my restore process so far - electrolysis has been my best friend.

Also, using paint stripper to get down to the bare metal I noticed the same colour again after the paint stripper ate away other layers. The Turquoise colour is also on the tailstock and appears to be the same colour (if you factor in aging, wear, etc) as the planer in the image that cncFireman posted.

I still have not found any identifiable markings on the late itself - the walker turner chuck turned out nicely (pun intended).

 

[Lester Bowman]

Joe..another great observation on style and finishes in relation to era and vintage of machine tools. Would you say the same general rules of thumb apply to stationary steam engines as well?

 

[enginebill]

Engines were painted black but I think that red and green stayed the most popular colors through the turn of the century. An engine like yours, Lester, could have been a dark crimson red with yellow or gold pin striping or just black, either way it would look good. I would also only use linseed oil paint on something that old. When fresh linseed oil paint does have some glossiness to it but soon becomes flat with handling due to the fact that takes a long time to harden. Many engines were varnished over the linseed oil paint for a more durable gloss finish. That is what I did for the Otto & Langen engine that I restored and it looks great.

There is a great book on painting buggies and coaches on Google Books from the 1800's and it goes into great detail on preparing surfaces and mixing paints and varnishes. It is amazing how much work went into painting a buggy.

 

[Joe in NH]

Heh - Turquoise - that is a "bluish-green"

Dad had a 1968 Chevrolet that was officially "turquoise."

As to my coloring guidelines - all rules and standards are subject to change. Those guidelines are basically Ed Battison's advice to me on colors/sheens/applications. Few people knew more on antique machine tools than Ed - but were he still with us I expect he also would take delight in the exception.

Just as my circa 1870 Serial No. 1 Flather lathe appears to be "light grey" - which is a color selection not in my description either. I'm probably going to leave the color as the paint is in pretty good shape overall - only some rusting on the legs where they were near the concrete floor at its former location.

Thing about rules is, as soon as you state a rule, someone finds an exception.

I'm good with that.

Joe in NH