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Newbie question on torches

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
This is certainly off the topic of vintage machinery but i'll risk offending the old-iron gods just this once based on the consequence of a bad decision on my part.

At some point i'm going to need a set of oxy-acetelene torches. Used sets are all over craigslist all the time. While i like saving a buck as much (or more) than the next guy, i'm not confident in my ability to assess the condition of a set of used torches (i'm strictly a hobbiest). Certainly i can identify the obvious stuff like bent fittings, cracked hoses etc. but i can imagine all sorts of hidden problems just waiting to ruin my day.

Am i being over conservative from a safety standpoint or should i follow my gut and dish out the coin for a set of new stuff?

Mark
 
Actually, I found myself in the same conundrum when I went shopping for my "gas hammer."

The problem with used torches isn't so much the torches as it is the regulators. Sticking out as they do they're quite prone to being damaged, and a regulator don't regulate well if it has a crack in the diaphragm. Many users "screw down" the regulating T-screw which IMHO adversely affects and bends the diaphragm (I would leave them alone between uses) and simply shut off the cylinder valve - which HAS to be tight as it leaves the supplier. (They're all tested for function when refilled/exchanged.

Gauges are particularly prone to damage - even tugging on the hose can "roll" the cylinder in the cart and cause the gauge to hit the other cylinder. Oxygen gauges HAVE to be "oil free" lest you suddenly encounter a raging inferno as the oil inside "spontaneously combusts" in the presence of pure oxygen. Gauges HAVE to work and be accurate - and should go back to zero when unloaded. Broken sight glass on these is bad practice and a sign on perhaps additional damage.

Tips you can replace for relatively small money. The welding tips can be "reamed" slightly if a blow back (common among the inexperienced) should happen and damage the orifice. The cutting tip HAS to have a nice pencil point - but again, tips are not that expensive.

One thing I've noticed on my now, um, 30 year old "Sears Craftsman" set (Possibly a "Victor" product) is that threads/unions where they screw onto the bottles are now starting to wear. So eventually I'll be into new regulators as parts can be found - but not at Sears anymore. And rebuilding a regulator can be a challenge, not so much for the mechanics as much as everything seems to be "stuck" on a 30 year old device. Its almost easier to buy new.

And maybe that is the key. You can buy a used setup - but almost immediately you'll be replacing/upgrading parts of it which may (if you know setups) need replacement or may not (if its your first setup and you're trying to diagnose and repair some fault and not sure of cause.)

I guess like myself, I would buy new and consider it "learning from the best possible teacher." A new setup you can trust, work with it to know its faults and strengths, and quicker develop consistency in your welding - which is the desired objective.

I have "B" size tanks both oxygen and acetylene. It does most everything I need to do - which isn't all that much but when you need a gas hammer - its there waiting for you...

Joe in NH
 
Take a squirt bottle full of soapy water with you to check it out. Spray down all the fittings and hoses. Any leaks will be quickly apparent. Check the hoses for cracking. If everything looks ok, just make sure you don’t pay too much for it.
 
Torches don't give too much trouble, at least in my experience. Regulators usually start leaking after years of use. I take them to my welding supply house and they send them out for repair, come back like new.
I did just get a torch back that the air valve was stuck open on. It was a cast off, got two of them, one is working fine...............both Victors. I hardly ever buy a torch, usually have them given to me..........regulators, not so much.
 
The real issue you get into, is vintage.

Hoses can be replaced easily. If the set isn't horrendously old, and is from one of the big, long-time makers, such as Victor, Smiths, and Harris, you can usually get replacement tips.

Problems start to crop up when mixers have problems, such as bad valve seats, and the set is quite old. Very old regulators are even worse. The difficulty lies in getting replacement parts. You can, if very careful, re-work the seats on mixer valves, and come up with a suitable seal/packing. The ancient regulator with a bad diaphragm and valve seal is another story. All too often those parts are no longer available, and suitable substitutes will be difficult, if not impossible to find.

Moral of the story: get a set that has been made in the last 30-40 years.

Lastly, and has been already mentioned, overhauling a torch set is both easy, and relatively simple, as long as parts are available. And is certainly cost effective is the set isn't utterly beat to hell.

But...

You are risking your life rebuilding the oxygen regulator. Extreme care must be exercised if overhauling one of those, as you are dealing with pure oxygen at pressures approaching 3000 PSI. If you have ANY oils on the internal parts exposed to those high pressures, when you turn on the tank valve the rush of high pressure oxygen can ignite the oil (the diesel effect), and blow up the regulator. This has actually happened, not only to people who have not exercised due caution when they rebuilt their torch regulator, but also some divers have been killed when they had unqualified outfits rebuild their scuba equipment.

I rebuilt one of my oxygen regulators some years ago, but was very diligent about cleanliness. Nevertheless, when I cracked that tank valve the first time, it was with much trepidation.
 
Take a squirt bottle full of soapy water with you to check it out. Spray down all the fittings and hoses. Any leaks will be quickly apparent. Check the hoses for cracking. If everything looks ok, just make sure you don’t pay too much for it.

If they happen to have a full bottle around.....many times, the torches & regulators
are sitting in a box, with no bottles in sight.
 
As said previously, parts to fix older torches and regulators can be a problem. I once bought a Union Carbide set up at a swap meet. They looked clean and in great shape. I took them to get rebuilt only to find out there are no parts available. The reason they were clean was because they had already been to the rebuild place before! I was snookered!!
 
I recently found a place in Buffalo that does regulator & torch repairs
and rebuilds.
Empire Torch & Regulator Repair - Home | Facebook

I would have no problem buying used from them.

I would also suggest you talk with them for recommendations
of what you need, what is available, and what would work
best for you.

There was a place in Jamestown, NY that did rebuilds as well, but I'm not sure if they're still around.

As with anything used, getting something from a well known manufacturer increases chances of parts availability. I probably wouldn't buy a used set that I couldn't test unless I knew they were rebuildable.

Lots of new torch sets are made overseas, so quality can be dubious.

Andy
 
There was a place in Jamestown, NY that did rebuilds as well, but I'm not sure if they're still around.

As with anything used, getting something from a well known manufacturer increases chances of parts availability. I probably wouldn't buy a used set that I couldn't test unless I knew they were rebuildable.

Lots of new torch sets are made overseas, so quality can be dubious.

Andy

Hence a phone call to the above linked would answer the OP's questions
in about 5 minutes.

I happened to be in the area, so stopped in, but they explained
that they get UPS/mail everyday from all over the country.

As these little places go out of business, the few remaining
are switching to internet/phone & ups/mail mode.
 
Buy new, by reputable and always install blow back valves in both the the acetylene and oxygen lines. A blow back will almost always trash the pitot tubes in the regulators. In the end and over time the cost difference between new and used is nothing.
 
Stay away from the older MECO torches. The seal between the body and tip is prone to leaking and you suddenly find there is a flame next to your hand. I believe they fixed it, but I just switched to Smiths, which I consider the best.

Bill
 
Used oxyacetylene equipment is a grab-bag. I have had a Victor cutting and welding outfit for over 45 years. I went heavy at the start, getting new two-stage regulators since I knew I'd be doing heavy cutting and using large rosebuds (heating tips). I did get a used Victor cutting attachment, mixing handle, welding tips and rosebud. I invested in new hose. I've used that outfit for over 45 years with no complaints.

The problem with a lot of used regulators is the people who used them. Sounds silly, I know. When I was a kid, the oldtimers who taught me used to be fanatical that when I was done using an oxyacetylene outfit or anything with similar regulators, I was to back off the thumbscrews to relax the springs and diaphragms. After that, I was taught to bleed down the hoses and then shut the valves on the torch. Many people simply leave the regulators adjusted as they are and when they turn on the valves on the cylinders of compressed gasses, the regulators are slugged with that surge of pressure. The other problem is over time the springs and diaphragms, if left with some load on them, will "take a set", and the regulator will not hold pressure accurately or have a possible "leak by" from a cracked diaphragm.

You can tell a lot just looking at oxyacetylene outfits. On construction sites and heavy fabrication shops where the people do not own the equipment are often in a hurry, the equipment takes a real beating. I've been on jobs where I've seen men in the trades use the back of the cutting torch as a hammer to knock out a burned slug of metal when burning holes in plate or pipe. Hoses get brittle with age, as do O rings used to seal the torch components. Regulators are often thrown haphazardly into gang boxes or boxes on welding trucks. In short, if an outfit looks beat up on the outside, the inside works of it are probably not much better.

As for choices of oxyacetylene outfits, my advice is to stick to a known manufacturer so parts and service are available. The top of the heap here in the USA used to be Smith's. Smith's made a fine line of oxyacetylene equipment. Smith;s used to use knurled gland nuts on their torches and cutting attachments so that people did not over-tighten the connections between torch tips and torches or cutting attachments. SMith's never disappointed me, but they were pricier and less common back when I was getting a cutting outfit of my own. We had Victor outfits on the powerplant jobsites and they held up well. The local welding supply carried Victor, so that is what I went with.

Nowadays, there are a lot of knockoffs of Victor equipment. Even Victor themselves have some of their torches and regulators made or assembled in Mexico if I am not mistaken. As I said, I have no complaints and only good things to say about my own Victor oxyacetylene outfit. I also got an ancient Victor J-27 "aircraft torch"- a kind of semi-miniature torch- from a dentist who did bridgework and similar. It is a dandy little torch for fine work and I run it off the same regulators and tanks as the regular full sized outfit.

Smiths used to be an independent manufacturer of torches, but I think like so many other firms, they were absorbed by one of the conglomerates. As Bill notes, they always made what I considered the best torches and regulators. If I came by used Smith's equipment, I would grab it if it did not look beat up. As I said, on jobsites, I've seen men do things to torches that made me cringe. Probably the worst and most suicidal thing I ever saw was on a powerplant jobsite. The millwrights in a shed without benefit of compressed air, were running die grinders off the oxygen bottle on their cutting outfit. If you look on the faces of the gauges on the regulators it will always say: "Use no Oil". There is a reason for that, and oxygen will accelerate combustion and can produce an explosive result.

As if that was not bad enough, on that same jobsite, I was out in the laydown area looking for materials for a job. At the edge of the laydown area, the Operating Engineers had an equipment repair shop in a temporary building. One of their "mechanics" was attempting to unclog a fuel filter for a John Deere piece of equipment. The filter was a molded plastic box type, with two "O" rings to seal it against the ports on the side of the engine. This "mechanic" had a lit cigarette hanging out of his face and had shoved the tip of a cutting torch into one of the ports on the filter body and was back blowing the filter. To help dissolve whatever crud had clogged the filter, the mechanic had a pail of gasoline that he'd evidently immersed the filter in before attempting to back blow it with the torch. The smell or raw gasoline was in the air, and this nut with his cigarette was blasting oxygen into that fuel filter. I was about 23 at the time and given to being cocky and taking chances, but this guy was like a textbook or safety film of everything a person should not do. I hollered at him, and he grinned and hollered back, telling me he did this sort of thing "all the time" and telling me not to worry. I RAN a good piece from that nut. The sad part was no one in supervision paid any attention to this sort of thing. Meanwhile, the jobsite had safety meetings, safety posters all over the place, books of safety rules we had to read and sign... and this sort of thing went on with people using oxygen in ways that should have blown them off the map. I suppose there may be some truth to the saying that God watches over fools and little boys...

Look over a used oxyacetylene outfit carefully. If it has carbon black around the joints on the torch, chances are things are not sealing as they should and some acetylene leakage is happening. Possibly fixable with new O rings, possibly a distorted or dinged seating surface. If it looks like the head of the cutting torch was used as a hammer, or the tubes between the mixing barrel and the cutting head are pinched together and bent, stay away.

Check the gauges on the regulators and be sure the pointers sit right at zero, and the gauge housings are solidly mounted and nothing sounds loose or rattly in the gauges. If you see pipe wrench marks or vise-grip marks on the fittings and parts, it's a sign someone who did not understand how these sorts of things go together and seal was at work, applying what I call "Gorilla Torque". Light torque to make up the joints on this sort of equipment is all that is needed. Either ground seats, coned seat, or O rings make the seals on most of it. If it looks like some drunken plumber's helper put the pipe wrenches to the torches or regulators, do not pursue buying them.

That's my 2 cents on the matter.
 
I prefer the Airco series of torches and regulators, seek them out when I can find them.

I like the "Corncob" style of cutting torch, with lever in the
front, under side. I have used levers from the rear, both
top & bottom, and from the front top, and none work as
well as the Airco.
The cutting torches don't use any O-rings, and only 1 had a leak at the tip seat.

I dropped it off at the above mentioned place, went up north a bit for other
things that day, came back in a couple of hours, they had reamed the seat, and tested it, very good price as well.

I use the airco (now concoa) 2 stage regulators, and have 1 that leaks, so it too will get sent up to buffalo.

I was in a shop where the management was tired of torch repairs,
so they switched to this "guaranteed for life" torch:
Smith SC179 Heavy Duty Hand Cutting Torch-90 Degree Head - 17 - SC179
I tried it, it's a club. It does not feel good in the hand, is
not balanced at all.
 
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Just some more notes...

Was at my LWS yesterday, they had a very nice looking cutting torch,
Private labled with the LWS's name.

Box said "Victor style" and "Made in Poland"

Harbor Freight sells torch sets as well as a cutting torch, all
"Victor style" made in China.

I suppose the Victor Style is popular, hence the rampant copying.
 
didn't read this whole thing but I have multiple journeyman victor sets most of them are yard sale finds. I did a dumdum I was scarfing a weld out and used one of them as a hammer and broke the soldering in the head I was not happy :mad5: but mostly they are pretty tough. and it was still fixable. the biggest thing is make sure your local welding shop has tips in stock or your going to always have to have extras on site. I have a selection of tips in the shop to cut up to 4"
 
Get on ebay and find some oxy propane tips and a new T rated hose

Cutting and heating, propane puts out a LOT more BTUs than acet. May burn at a slightly lower temperature, but it puts out more heat. Cheaper too.
Can't weld with it though, where a neutral acet flame has only CO2 as exhaust, propane has water which will put oxygen and hydrogen into the steel.

Everyone has 'their' way of using a torch, and you'll surely die if you do it any other way.
I leave the regs set when putting away, bleed down fuel then o2 to avoid getting fuel into the o2 hose, and blow both hoses out a little bit before lighting.

Just about impossible to check old regs for leaks any other way than with a cigarette lighter, the diaphragm vent holes are too big to see bubbles from them, so watch for changes in the lighter flame. If they are leaking, turn off the bottle and the little tiny flame will go out, obviously.
 








 
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