Old Lathe Identification - HELP

Hey guys, just picked up my first metal lathe. Due to budget restraints I was only able to afford an old antique one (for now.) Im a real ametuer when it comes to lathe work but I love it. I can't find any identifying marks on the thing. The previous owner only had it for a few years, but thought it was from the 20s or 30s. He advertised it as 10in x 24in lathe. Weight has to be about 350 pounds or so. Has been modified (poorly) to run on 120v. I haven't done much work to it yet but plan on fixing it up as much as my buget will allow.

I am a new member and this is my first post. Trying to figure out how to get pictures on here may take some trial and error, please bear with me.

Newbies always have a challenge with pix.

Once you make the first (entry) post of a thread, you can "edit" it to add pictures as an attachment. Use the board software and "manage attachments" to upload pix to your board file. Then you can add this same pix to any number of threads by referring back to the board file using manage attachments.

Or you can add pix as anyone can on your second entry to a thread using the same methods.

It sounds like your lathe may look like this?



I think the originating post/pix exclusion is a method they use to keep spammers from putting advertising which is largely done as jpg files. The edit step slows them down, kind of "hides" as a methodology, and is counter to a "hit & run" membership.

Joe in NH

Thanks Joe, think i just figured it out. Using a mobile device so took a bit to find all the pictures. I just added them as a reply, hopefully that works.

Very nice. You've done well Grasshopper.

Off hand, the lathe doesn't look familiar. Not to say that it wasn't a common brand in its day. Its just that this brand and I haven't met personally.

Those who are interested in these sort of things usually own Ken Copes "American Lathe Builders" book which was available from Astragal Press for a long time. MANY manufacturers are shown and its unusual that someone can't make a match - or own or know of your lathe outright.

Heh. I checked Amazon and found the book at FRIGHTFUL prices. For Astragal this book must be out of print?



Doubtless there are other sellers who carry it for less as a used book.

Good luck. You'll be deluged with replies. This is like our FAVORITE game online called "Name that Lathe."

Joe in NH

Here is a close up of the copper plate. I think it refers to threading gears. The lathe came with a large set of them. Not quite sure how to read to plate. Im sure there are many good machinists on here that can help me with that.

Not that good a machinist but I think I see it.

First column "TH" is the thread you wish to cut.

Second column "SP" is the gear used on the spindle of the headstock.

Third column "SC" is the gear used on the leadscrew on the front of the lathe bed.

Fourth column specifies a ratio between the gear used against the spindle/headstock gear and the gear used against the leadscrew gear. Note the 2:1 and 1:2.

Now - how this is used.

You select a thread and find the spindle and lead screw gears and mount them. THEN you pick any gear that is not used to use as an "idler" between the driven and driver gears. A spot is made for this intermediate gear on the "banjo" (bracket adjustable on the outboard end of the head stock.) Any unused gear of the set will do. This is how you do the center most portion of the gear chart where no ratio is shown in the RH column.

For those thread selections where a ratio is shown, you need to find the two gears of your available set that when used present this 2:1 or 1:2 ratio. Use these gears similarly to before at the intermediate banjo position as a "compound gear" which is a gear ASSEMBLY where the gears are held together on a keyed sleeve or bushing found with your gears or other means to prevent relative motion of the two ratio gears. You need to "offset" either the SP gear or the SC gear to allow this to happen (so the gear trains line up.) And yet another keyed bushing should be found among the gears to allow this to happen.

So for perhaps 80 percent of your threading you can use a simple gear train - this is by design. For those less commonly used, you need to set up a compound train. On my lathe I think I've used a compound train ONCE - but details and gear numbers vary between makers. Most lathes require about 13 gears total to cover the entire range of threading most commonly used.

You can check your available gears against this chart and see if any gears are missing.

Hope this helps. As part of your education, get a good book on lathes printed in the early part of the 20th century. There will be more and better description of how to calculate gear trains for making ANY thread count which you can use to check yourself.

South Bend for years published a good book pertinent to their lathes, but a more general book may be more useful to you. I suggest Robert Smith's "Advanced Machine Work" which despite the title isn't nearly so advanced. Can be found online at http://www.woodworkslibrary.com/repository/textbook_of_advanced_machine_work.pdf or other locations. Nothing like owning a real copy though. Can be found through the online booksellers such as Ebay or Abebooks for as little as $14 delivered (paperback reprint.)

Good luck with that lathe.

Oh, can't forget to warn you. DON'T set up and use a gear train and feed via the lead screw - and then engage the lathe apron clutch which will cause a second carriage feeding action through the lathe feed rod/apron crank. The torque up between the two ratios/feeds will break the lathe.

A very common mistake.

Joe in NH

Joe, thank you so much for your help. I have 14 gears that came with the lathe. It seems like i have a full set plus one. There are two compound gears in the set, a 60/30 tooth (for my 2:1), a 60/20 tooth (for 3:1) , in addition, I have a deep 40 tooth (suspect that is for spindle.)

I THINK IM LEARNING!

Definitely going to look into getting the books you mentioned.

Looks like the Shepherd that I have. At one time yours was foot powered like the one pictured in the attached shots. Nice that you got the change gears and nice explanation on how to use them.

Thanks Ed




Thanks Ed

Yes Ed, I think you might be right! Do you have any info on your lathe? Possible age? Can you send me a close up pic of the manufacturers mark/plate? Now that I know a possible manufacturer, I can get on trying to find a manual or diagrams.

survivalinstinct said:

Now that I know a possible manufacturer, I can get on trying to find a manual or diagrams.

Click to expand...

As to age I would put it from the 1880s to possibly the 1920s. Good information on the maker (and likely pix) beginning at Shepard Lathe Co. - History | VintageMachinery.org

As to manufacturers manual or diagrams, I'm afraid you're on your own. There may be a catalog cut either online or from a respondent.

This lathe was created in an age of the "apprentice system." We're talking an age where those who originated the lathes as we know them were still alive. One either learned by doing "at the knee of the Master" or one surprised the Master by having read about it beforehand and being able to do it without instruction.

Thus you will probably benefit most from those same books that budding and motivated apprentices used then in learning the trade.

In reality, ALL lathes of this period embody similar if not identical operation. My Barnes lathe pictured earlier uses 13 gears. My Flather No. 1 uses 14 gears to achieve a similar threading objective. The barnes lathe does not have a feed rod - but instead relies on a large diameter gear (the 109 gear) to achieve an incremental and small motion of the carriage for general cylindrical turning. The Flather uses a separate belt and keyed "feed rod" to drive the carriage apron mechanism directly (and in parallel with the lead screw if you're not careful) this being the way almost all cylindrical turning is done on a lathe - including yours.

But this - and other tricks and "normal" use - you will learn as you check out the books.

Like the use of a "dauber" to oil the dead center. I confess it took me quite a while to learn of the dauber. This being a small reservoir of oil built into the top rear the tail stock and applied to the dead center V with a small brass or steel application tool - the "dauber." Most application tools are now missing after 100 years. And most books of the period DON'T mention the dauber - its use apparently so fundamental that description in a book was considered superfluous.

Anyway, now check out your lathe rpm changes. Most lathes which have been brought into the 20th century and mated to an electric motor turn WAY TOO FAST. Find out what the rpm seems to want to be for each step and get back to us. You may want to make some changes to your lathe drive before you get too serious about using the lathe.

The books mentioned will actually help you determine if your lathe drive is correct. There is a certain range of "cutting FPM (feet per minute)" you want to maintain for best and most accurate cutting.

Yes, more arithmetic. One of the things which separated a Machinist from a mere Laborer in the 19th Century.

Good luck.

Joe in NH

Joe in NH said:

This being a small reservoir of oil built into the top rear the tail stock and applied to the dead center V with a small brass or steel application tool - the "dauber."

Click to expand...

I heard it was for white lead paste lubricant. I wonder which came first?

Frank R said:

I heard it was for white lead paste lubricant. I wonder which came first?

Click to expand...

Maybe I should have said "lubricant" and left determination of the contents of the reservoir to the user?

Good catch there Frank!

Joe in NH

HL Shepard it is. More info: http://www.lathes.co.uk/shepardhl/

The photo of the half-nut lever, and the top of the carriage just above it are telling.

pick up a copy of machine tool operation by Burghardt vol 1 any edition ..he was head of high school shop teaching in N.J. ..tremendous number of copies from circa 1921 thru 1940....ten dollars shud do it on line ........current texts are designed for current commercial production & are not nearly as valuable for home shop ...this book will teach you what you need to know abt a lathe of your vintage & how to run it ...vol 2 is abt drilling , milling shaping & grinding ...vol 1 is all lathe
best wishes
doc

Oh, can't forget to warn you. DON'T set up and use a gear train and feed via the lead screw - and then engage the lathe apron clutch which will cause a second carriage feeding action through the lathe feed rod/apron crank. The torque up between the two ratios/feeds will break the lathe.

Click to expand...

I used to believe all lathes had an interlock that makes that impossible, but recently I've seen a few that came without any protection. Nine times out of ten though if you can engage the half nuts and the feeds simultaneously there is a mechanical fault disabling the interlock.
Finding out if you can engage both at once is a pretty important safety check.
Also, I have one lathe that can have both longitudinal (Using the half nuts)and cross feeds (PTO from the keyway) engaged simultaneously which cuts a taper, but it's clearly not an intentional addition. I say "safety" but mean safety for the machine. Not like the 1840-70's practice of open exposed gearing on the apron right where the operators hands are reaching 50 times a day. Yikes!

partsproduction said:

I used to believe all lathes had an interlock that makes that impossible, but recently I've seen a few that came without any protection. Nine times out of ten though if you can engage the half nuts and the feeds simultaneously there is a mechanical fault disabling the interlock.
Finding out if you can engage both at once is a pretty important safety check.
Also, I have one lathe that can have both longitudinal (Using the half nuts)and cross feeds (PTO from the keyway) engaged simultaneously which cuts a taper, but it's clearly not an intentional addition. I say "safety" but mean safety for the machine. Not like the 1840-70's practice of open exposed gearing on the apron right where the operators hands are reaching 50 times a day. Yikes!

Click to expand...

I first did the "not to do" on Flather No. 715 (where is it now?) On this lathe there was enough "slip" in the apron clutch to simply "override" the apron feed without doing damage.

And yes, I attempted to cut a "taper" using both cross feed and lateral clutches together - but again that slip.

It was a very "inexact" taper when completed.

Joe in NH

"I used to believe all lathes had an interlock that makes that impossible, but recently I've seen a few that came without any protection. "

Early Seneca Falls machines are like this. When you simultaneously engage the half nuts and the carriage feed at the same
time, it's the same thing as putting a manual transmission in two gears at once. Locks the geartrain right up. If it's under power
at the time, the left hand leadscrew bracket blows off the bed. Many of the older lathes have this cannonical repair when
you find them.

My Eriksen shaper also has the capability of cutting a taper, I'm sure, again, unintended. There are two separate ratchet wheels on both longitudinal and vertical feeds and they are connected by quadrant gears. The feed screws both being 6TPI means only a 45 degree taper can be cut, since both ratchets are impulsed by the same eccentric T slot/push rod.
It was intended that one or the other ratchets be engaged of course, but a 45 degree angle, being probably the most common chamfer, it may have been intentional, I'm just not sure how one would control the chamfer's dimensions.

Hey guys, thank you so much for all of your input. The past few weeks I have spent any spare time reading and researching. Im definitely going to be investing in a few of the books you recommended.

I have another issue I need to seek advice on. I have, what I believe to be, a full set of threading gears, but no threading dial. I have seen a method for threading without one, but it seems very tedious. Can I somehow retrofit one? I know my lead screw is 5 TPI, isnt that rather uncommon? Any suggestions?