P&W 13" Model B Thread Gear

[OldParts]

Please let me know if questions like this belong in Heavy Iron US or somewhere else, but think I found some discussion on the Model Bs here.

Also getting wayyy ahead of myself as I don't even know the delivery date yet, but curious.

Pictures and manuals seem to confirm the later (12") Model Bs came with a 11.5" change gear. The seller didn't see it noted on the thread plate of this unit.

I think it's fairly early; comparing with dates in a few other threads around here: possibly mid to late? 1920s. I didn't see any gears pictured in the loose tooling. Did the 69tooth (11-1/2) gear come standard with the earlier ones; if so, what are the chances I'll find it somewhere inside?

I'd probably only use it for pipe thread; and I do have both taps and dies for pipe, but those can be a pain. So 11-1/2 was rather high on my lathe priority list, but the mill I was bargaining on with it had me simultaneously nudging my budget and shedding a bit of the wish list.

 

[handsome devil]

Do you have pics? I have a 13" P&W conehead lathe and a P&W 20" model B from about 1924 I think. Mine I believe was an earlier production B. The conehead came with a box of change gears as it is an old lathe. The model B has a quick change gear box and I didn't know they came with change gears. So maybe I can learn from you here. On my B there is a cover that goes over the back gears and has special screw/bolt holding it on It does not appear to me that you would be changing gears unless something broke? So maybe you can shed some light for me. My 20" is not up and running but want to get into this lathe after I finish another machine tool project. So I am all ears on any P&W project. How about some pictures? Regards, John.

 

[OldParts]

Not shipped yet, so nothing of the insides, but I have a couple I downloaded before I bought it. I'm not sure about the rules around here about posting duplicate pictures, so here's a link where I uploaded a couple; post 19.

It does have the quick change, but that doesn't cover everything. I didn't find operation literature on early Bs, but between a little sales literature, and some later operation literature I read here, there were charts on what gears to change for less common threads. It seems strongly implied, perhaps was even stated that the 69 tooth was standard equipment at least on later ones; the 12" B (essentially late 13" to my understanding) even had it's own line on the thread plate for 11.5tpi with 69tooth between the rest of the 72 tooth settings.

The second photo in the second post of this thread has a photo of the thread plate showing the 11.5tpi position with 72tooth on the stud, and 69tooth on the screw.

All ears here too!

 

[johnoder]

If you would like the 16" "big brother" manual just PM your email address - might be helpful

Since the upgrade to 12 from 13 focused on anti friction spindle bearings* and modern (cam loc) spindle nose, I would imagine the 12 manual would do fairly well with the 13 as to how it functioned elsewhere

(* ALL production Model Bs EXCEPT the 12" had plain (Babbitt or Bronze) spindle bearings)

 

[handsome devil]

Thanks for your other thread link. Sure looks like a nice lathe from the pics. I pray my spindle bearings are good. I think these lathes are truly an art form. I read through my owners manual and saw nothing about extra gears but I willingly admit I know almost nothing about these lathes. I paid $1000 for my 20" B, went back and found some of the other tooling/parts that were not given to me when I bought it. Have a 20" {maybe 18"} face plate and steady rest. Mine has taper attachment but missing the guide block. Have one I can use off the conehead with a little alteration to the tapered stud. If these lathes are half as good as the lititure and previous lathe hand on mine said it is, we both are in possession of one heck of a lathe. I hope you take a lot of detailed pics of yours. One of my questions is how do you "check the oil" in the gear box. Was told there was a sight window but I never found one on mine. There is no dipstick or level/fill hole with plug to let you know your home. Mine had a pipe plug for a drain plug and it leaked so mine needs to be filled again and also need a proper fitting drain plug. A lathe hand who worked at this place said it was a good lathe and there was nothing wrong with it that he knew about. The owner/seller was crabby and wouldn't give out much info. He had sold a lot of older machines and nothing brought big money. I think I paid to much but I wanted the lathe so I "bought it now". My motor is what I think is original GE motor and is a 3 wire only motor and single voltage 440 3p. My RPC is 220/230 3P. When I get done with my radial drill I will either take motor to a shop and have it converted to 230v or maybe remotor but I kind of would like to keep the monster 7.5 hp it has. Not that I would ever use that kind of power or even need this lathe for home projects. About 12-15 years ago I wanted to make tapered bolts for a locomotive project. I just wanted something like my conehead with a taper attachment. Turned into concrete floor, 3P power, large camel back drill presses, large shaper, 2 lathes and a horizontal mill. A change of careers, couple years of school and 12 years in nursing put the machine shop on hold. So anyway sorry to get so long winded. I really like your lathe and hope you share pics and any learning you get from it. I hope to be right behind you when I start on my 20". Unlike my radial my lathe did not go through a flood and stay under a tarp for 10 years. Like you I am hoping for good luck. I can't afford spindle bearings. Regards,John.

PS John I just saw your note about bearings, if I don't have $1500-$2000 spindle bearing I will crack a beer in celebration. Was maybe in misunderstanding that they did have. After reading about the P&W C model bearings a cold chill ran through me.

 

[johnoder]

One of my questions is how do you "check the oil" in the gear box. Was told there was a sight window but I never found one on mine. T

I'll assume you are talking 20"

My 20 had no SIGHT GLASS, just a level gauge - brass tube with tubular glass inside

Down low in back - on the gear / clutch housing back there that the input shaft heads into from the drive pulley

Oil pump (which of course HAS TO BE WORKING) takes it up to top of head stock to a distribution manifold

You have plain bearings, which I hope you oil with Velocite #10 religiously *

Ever notice the two screws on out side of head stock at each end for adjusting these bearings on the fly?

* (there were a tiny number of 20" revised (likely new HS casting) to have the fancy angular contact ball bearings - I have seen exactly one in person)

 

[OldParts]

If you would like the 16" "big brother" manual just PM your email address - might be helpful

Will do. Thank you!

 

[OldParts]

I hope you take a lot of detailed pics of yours.

Sure plan to!

About 12-15 years ago I wanted to make tapered bolts for a locomotive project. I just wanted something like my conehead with a taper attachment. Turned into concrete floor, 3P power, large camel back drill presses, large shaper, 2 lathes and a horizontal mill.

That's quite a shop! Boiler studs?

 

[handsome devil]

No I was going to make saddle bolts, that was the plan, ha!

Thanks John I will continue to look. Think the builders plate says 1925 build? I will attempt to make sure the pump is working when I get that far. Has a number of little oil holes with felt in them. Has little slide covers over the openings. Been a while since I looked at the 20" B. Kind of keep an eye open for rust or anything nasty like that. My shop is pretty hostile environment but I have most things protected where rust has not been a big problem. But you gotta keep an eye on things. My radial drill is dripping with oil and you have to wipe your hands off everytime you touch it. I don't like that but oil is better than rust and I will clean it up shortly if my repair works. Had to replace a spur gear on that. All this iron and no serious need, but it keeps me out of the bars. Regards, John.

 

[OldParts]

Looks like the 69tooth will just keep me guessing until the lathe arrives. That 16" manual seems to confirm they considered it standard equipment. But the very few photos floating around the internet of early 13" model B's doesn't look like the 11.5tpi was noted on the feed/thread plate. Of course, I didn't find a single photo sharp enough when zoomed into the numbers to say that for certain either.

 

[OldParts]

All this iron and no serious need, but it keeps me out of the bars. Regards, John.

I sometimes wonder whether the bars might be cheaper than tools! It seems I always need to buy more tools to take care of some project that I was so certain wouldn't take much time or money.

 

[OldParts]

Haven't tested any threading yet. I just got the clutch halfway cooperating; it couldn't turn the head in direct range without a very slow spin up - all clutch not motor. Now am cleaning decades of sticky grease (yes, it had zerks placed in several of the oil holes)out of the carriage gearbox. I'd been tempted to use it as is, but the rack release was hanging up; sometimes an hour or more wait for it to re-engage. When I took the carriage off, I noticed how the grease had been a chip magnet and was packed with more chips than I wanted in there. Looking a some chips I grabbed with a magnet, along with some fine ones, there were a few heavier ones that had come off blue, so there had been heavier cuts at some point.

Anyway - this is serial number 255, and does have the same quick change plate as the later ones with 11.5tpi on it's own line between the "medium" and "fine" positions. It looks like the 68tooth gear is still there too; just like in the books, it looks like it sits on the shaft as a spacer so you don't loose whichever isn't in use. But I didn't get much time testing anything yet, then was sidetracked on that clutch.

Really getting off track, my clutch cover shows a tapered screw adjustment between the fingers, but that must have been changed. It instead has a screw in one of the fingers that controls the height of tapered plates between them. The screw was at the bottom of travel and worn into the one it was supposed to lock. So the screw was longer keeping them in place; having had some prior creative adjustment with what looked like a braze buildup on the back, I put a small spot of weld in the screw area. The screw seems to bite it now, but will require a repeat to adjust.

Such nice gears and bed, but well worn clutch & a few other abuses....oh, if this thing could talk.

 

[handsome devil]

Glad to hear of your progress. It may be some more time before I start on my 20" as I now have found a bad bearing I need to address on my radial drill after a few alterations to my "drop in" replacement gear.

Not to be pushy by any means but you promised pictures. Anything you share on your project maybe a giant help to me when I start mine.

As to an earlier reply on this thread from John. I may have found where the oil level glass was but it is not there now. Found a few smaller pcs of capped off or plugged piping that might of been where it was located. Having reread your post John I need to go back and look for those adjusting screws you mentioned.

Now that it finally warmed up, time is divided up between RR museum work, garden, yard, and misc farm work. Not to mention I need to get that bearing or bushing on the radial straightened out. This could very well be why I broke that gear the second time. Don't need the radial for any work, I just need to get it running right so I can go on to the lathe.

Regards, John.

 

[johnoder]

Further to 20"

Thumbnail from parts book - one of their magnificent line drawings

Bearing adjust screws 1396-J1495 can be made out centered on the bearings - along with their partner wedges J756

Oil level is a smidgen below the centerline of the pump down at bottom to the right of the pair of gears G8-63-1 and G8-43-6 that share the same shaft that drives the pump

This assembly has sketched in WINDOWS which are in the back wall of the bed casting - how power comes thru bed wall on this design

ON EDIT: Add thumbnail from 16 manual sent to OldParts - shows oil level

(or in other words, this end of bed casting serves as an oil reservoir - along with the rear clutch gear box, Don't be surprised if it leaks - my 20" did)

 

[handsome devil]

Thanks John for the diagrams. I have the booklet you printed up for me years ago when I got this 20". Are there more owners or operators manuals available? This book is almost a sales type of book but doesn't get into any real nitty gritty stuff or at least not enough for me. Would be happy to pay for any printable literature available.

Old Parts {don't know real name?} can you take pictures of yours and what you have for oil sight glass. I am pretty busy for next few days so I don't know how much looking I will get done but I am going to feel real dumb if this all of a sudden appears. I don't mind looking as it kind of rekindles my interest in getting this thing functioning. Then maybe I can take a refresher lesson or two from my machinist buddies on doing basics with a lathe. Haven't done much with a lathe since vocational machine shop in HS back in the dark ages. And I hope you don't mind me talking with John about PW stuff. Sounds like were in the same place or near it and hope anything I find out helps you on your end. Some people get real possessive about their thread and I certainly am not trying to stray away from your PW 13" part of the thread. I don't seem to recall much about the PW model B out there so sorry to glom on if it is a problem. Regards, John.

 

[johnoder]

There are 20" Repair Part List and Instruction Book - maybe I'll stay inside and scan them one of these hot days

Thanks John for the diagrams. I have the booklet you printed up for me years ago when I got this 20". Are there more owners or operators manuals available? This book is almost a sales type of book but doesn't get into any real nitty gritty stuff or at least not enough for me. Would be happy to pay for any printable literature available.

.

Haven't done much with a lathe since vocational machine shop in HS back in the dark ages.

One of the all time most informative books on generic old lathe info

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/5795.pdf

 

[OldParts]

Sorry about the delay in photos - every time I'd had a chance to play with it this week, my hands have been wayyy too dirty to handle the camera.

I believe the seller degreased it well before putting it their warehouse, so it's hard to tell where prior leaks were, but what was left in the oil reservoir was essentially thick muck. So I added enough gear oil (maybe a couple quarts) to start it pumping then thinned it all with about a gallon of #2 fuel. That #2 sure cleaned the pump lines - but also splattered me good every time I'd test the clutch under power. Once I drain that mix, I'll need to fill it with a good recirculating oil; I understand that is proper for the application. I'll assume the leak later in life, when I took the covers off, it looked like the gears had been getting oil, yet there wasn't enough in there to start the pump when I powered it up. The differences in gear whine between lubes was interesting, but all a pleasant hum compared to a couple I've used that were likely 30years or more younger than this P&W.

Certainly, feel free to add whatever you like to this thread, and take it whatever direction it goes; no doubt I'll learn something! I'll try to get a few photos today. John's description of the oil glass paints a picture to me of what I have; a sight glass on the back, power-end, corner of the clutch housing. But then a photo is worth a thousand words!

 

[OldParts]

A few quick photos on the topics covered. I'll start with the thread title, 11.5 is definitely labeled, and without counting teeth, I'm 99% certain the gear mounted over the intermediate is the 69tooth as shown in the manuals. The gear guard works the opposite way though for camera lenses, so no photos there yet.

The apron oil channels full of grease. Great idea, especially in other locations, but with some sticky results here.

 

[OldParts]

The sight glass behind the clutch. A touch of green paint there; I found an occasional spot elsewhere. Cannot even tell whether the gray was on top of it or the other way around but predominantly gray; I really suspect this unit was rebuilt by a tinkerer maybe 30, 40 years ago.

The clutch instructions. I don't have the tapered screw between them, so it left me a bit confused. It does have the same wedge, but there are tapered plates between the "fingers" instead; lowering the plates in the fingers brings them closer together. A screw on one side of one finger locks the plate height while a "mortise and tendon" type projection in one plate and projection in the other keeps them the same height, but also makes removal a bit more challenging.

The internal gearing. Perhaps an occasional rough hand while shifting, but I think they look pretty good for 90 years old. The ones under the gear guard, and in the quick change box look as good or better to me. My eyes are just drawn to the bent oil tube with no apparent reason it was damaged. Maybe somebody dropped the cover on it once? Not me, but now that I wrote that, I best be extra careful.

And last for now. I really should make this "Special Feature" a guessing game, but doesn't seem right in this thread. While advertised as 3ph when I bought it, it had been previously converted to a single phase motor, though all three leads left dangling. Two legs of the contact switch were used, but instead of rewiring the on/off switch (maybe it or the contact coil doesn't work) a mechanical solution was adopted. A few turns on the screw engages the contacts. The threaded rod has a wire nut on the end for an "extra layer of protection!"

 

[handsome devil]

Thanks for the pictures and your findings. As I suspected my oil level gauge is missing. The piping comes out at the base to a "T" but is plugged off. But maybe when the time comes I can guess about where the fill is supposed to be and then make a non sight oil fill and pour in until it flows out the vertical pipe. Much like fill holes on other machinery. Would love to have the sight gauge that you have.

I read with interest about the 11.5 change gear. So when I looked at mine sure enough the extra gear is there and I would of never noticed it or know about it for that matter. Your detective work is paying off for me and I thank you.

While looking mine over I worked and oiled a few things like the compound slide and worked the clutches to see if they engaged when the clutch handle was tightened and both the carriage and compound locked and unlocked with clutch engagement. Would really like to get some oil circulating as it has been a while. Your picture of the jelled up grease is scary. On the builders plate on mine the last patent date is 1925 and hand stamped "applied for". My sn is #174. Have no idea if sn applied to the individual model B like 13", 16" and 20" separately or if all three sizes were lumped together with the SN? Thanks again for all your help and please keep your progress reports and pictures coming.

Regards, John.