Shaper electrical help needed

Jager · Oct 15, 2017

I'm having trouble getting my Cinci 20" shaper started. I push the power button and it tries to start the motor but stalls out immediately. I have a feeling the incoming power is wired incorrectly but I don't know enough to be sure. Power is 220v 3 phase coming from my phase converter which runs all of my other machines just fine.

You can see the 3 wires coming in to the box in the pics. They are connected to 3 terminals. There is one terminal on the right that doesn't have a wire going to it.

Mike C. · Oct 15, 2017

Sounds like the machine is wired for 440V. If the motor is dual voltage, swap the leads around for low voltage. Also, make sure your starter isn't running on the generated leg. That won't cause the stall, but will cause it to not stay engaged sometimes.

Lastly, if you do have to rewire for 220V from 440, your starter heater overloads are going to be undersized. You'll need to find a new set of heaters for the 220V amp rating of the motor.

johnoder · Oct 15, 2017

Or if already Reconnected for low volts at motor, and no addressing of heaters / thermal overloads in mag starter - it will do that - when you push the start button the now underrated heaters just open as they detect the double size amps 220/230/240 uses in comparison to 440/460/480

So it dies right there

If you can't get the right heaters (or any) for and old starter - replace it with such as an AB 509 BOD that you CAN get heaters for. Lots of used ones out there

Jager · Oct 15, 2017

I double checked all the connections on the motor itself and they appear to be correct.

4,5,6 tied together
1,7
2,8
3,9

Just for kicks I blocked the belt tensioner counter weight up to take the tension off of the belt. After I did that I spun the motor by hand. At first I didn't notice anything odd, so I tried to start it again and it started and ran OK.

I shut it off and took a closer look. The motor shaft has quite a bit of play. About .100" axial end play and .030" radial play.

With the tension on the motor it will not start/run.

Smoothbore · Oct 16, 2017

That's a lot of wear.

Sounds like a couple of new bearings in the motor, would be a good thing.

.

Jager · Oct 16, 2017

Smoothbore said:
That's a lot of wear.

Sounds like a couple of new bearings in the motor, would be a good thing.

.

Yeah. I guess I'll be pulling the motor to inspect and repair. Hopefully it hasnt done any serious damage.

Jager · Oct 18, 2017

Got the motor pulled this morning and pulled the front cover for inspection. It's an oily mess. Everything is filthy and covered in oil and 70 years of gunk. The bearings are a little more complex design than I had imagined but should still be doable.

Any advice on the best way to clean and de-grease these parts? Will Brake cleaner harm anything?

Thanks

johnoder · Oct 18, 2017

Plain bearings says OLD. Any evidence of rings that ride on journals to bring up oil? Many of the oldies are RING OILED - these almost always have hinged covers to lift up so you can inspect

Thumbnail shows one I relined having the big slot in side for ring

AlexO · Oct 18, 2017

Jager said:
Got the motor pulled this morning and pulled the front cover for inspection. It's an oily mess. Everything is filthy and covered in oil and 70 years of gunk. The bearings are a little more complex design than I had imagined but should still be doable.

Any advice on the best way to clean and de-grease these parts? Will Brake cleaner harm anything?

Thanks

I would use kerosene. Some varnish was very sensitive to alkali - water based stuff might do damage. I don't know what's in brake cleaner but seems very aggressive towards fats and oils. I JUST cleaned a ram face to re-scrape and it rusted in minutes. That must've been bone dry...

Jager · Oct 19, 2017

Thinking about just using dawn soap and hot water to clean everything up. I'd hate to use something that might damage the wiring/coatings.

Jager · Oct 19, 2017

johnoder said:
Plain bearings says OLD. Any evidence of rings that ride on journals to bring up oil? Many of the oldies are RING OILED - these almost always have hinged covers to lift up so you can inspect

Thumbnail shows one I relined having the big slot in side for ring

I'll get some better pictures of the bearings and the armature shaft. There are some ring looking pieces on each end of the shaft. There is a oil fill port and oil overflow port on each end.

[486] · Oct 19, 2017

the ring oiled babbitt bearings on my shaper's motor are pretty tired, I also had to clean the scuzz out from between the rotor and armature to get it to rotate. Used a rag with kerosene, wrung out real good.

It still has a good 1/4" of endplay and some up and down slop, but I just don't let it bother me.
This the $500 shaper you were posting a heads up about a bit ago?

Mike C. · Oct 19, 2017

Use kerosene or mineral spirits to clean out the windings. Actually the varnish on the windings is REALLY tough stuff. You'd be amazed what it takes to remove it, but the old steam plant guy I worked with at the museum said mineral spirits is what they washed down the generator windings with. Give it two or three days in open air to dry before reassembling and powering up.

idacal · Oct 20, 2017

unless you are trying to keep it original your best bet may be a new motor, single phase, that solves a lot of issues that also makes it more resalable when trying to get rid of it. but my shaper my heirs will be getting rid of.

Jager · Oct 21, 2017

[486] said:
the ring oiled babbitt bearings on my shaper's motor are pretty tired, I also had to clean the scuzz out from between the rotor and armature to get it to rotate. Used a rag with kerosene, wrung out real good.

It still has a good 1/4" of endplay and some up and down slop, but I just don't let it bother me.
This the $500 shaper you were posting a heads up about a bit ago?

Nah. I wish I would've gone and bought that one but I didn't. I've had this one for 3 years or so.

I think I'm going to try and just clean everything up real good and put it back together and see what happens. I really don't have the time to be making new
Bushings right now if I don't have to.

Jager · Oct 21, 2017

Mike C. said:
Use kerosene or mineral spirits to clean out the windings. Actually the varnish on the windings is REALLY tough stuff. You'd be amazed what it takes to remove it, but the old steam plant guy I worked with at the museum said mineral spirits is what they washed down the generator windings with. Give it two or three days in open air to dry before reassembling and powering up.

Thanks for the advice. Hoping to get it cleaned up tomorrow and be able to try it this week and see what happens.

Mike C. · Oct 21, 2017

Those old ring oiled motors are immortal. The one on my L&S is from the 30s and the one on my radial drill is mid-20s. As long as the rotor doesn't hit the stator irons, let it fly.

Jager · Jan 11, 2018

Well I finally got around to working on this again.

I cleaned everything up with mineral spirits and reassembled. I lubricated the bushings with 600w steam cylinder oil before reassembly. Got the motor reinstalled yesterday and she fired right up and ran fine!

Thanks for all the advice

ramsay1 · Jan 11, 2018

Get some good electric motor cleaner in spray cans from somewhere like Grainger.. Be careful of the cleaner you use as the insulation may be tender.. When you get it cleaned up get some insulation spray such as glyptol I think sprayon sells it and soak the winding completely after they are dry from cleaning....I made the mistake of using a harsh cleaner once on a good running grinder motor and had to have it rewound.. Ramsay 1

Jager · Jan 12, 2018

ramsay1 said:
Get some good electric motor cleaner in spray cans from somewhere like Grainger.. Be careful of the cleaner you use as the insulation may be tender.. When you get it cleaned up get some insulation spray such as glyptol I think sprayon sells it and soak the winding completely after they are dry from cleaning....I made the mistake of using a harsh cleaner once on a good running grinder motor and had to have it rewound.. Ramsay 1

Thanks for the advice. I used mineral spirits and it doesn't seem to have damaged any thing. It worked really well for cleaning the old grease off. I did a light spray of wd40 afterwords and wiped it down with a clean cloth.

Now I'm tearing into an old Westinghouse 3hp motor that will be used on my old Aurora flat belt drill press. Needs new start caps and I think I got the centrifugal switch freed up inside.

Shaper electrical help needed

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