Steam hammer wanted.

I am looking for an old steam, pneumatic utility, or pneumatic self-contained hammer in at least rebuildable shape.

The old steam hammers, such as Niles-Bement, Chambersburg, Ross-Rigby, Bell etc. really call to me. I feel that they are an endangered class of machine, and quite rare now. It has been an increasingly long time since they were industrially relevant in the first world.

A single-frame hammer is greatly preferred, with a ram weight from 200-500 lbs. with a preference from 3-400.

My dream would be to actually run one on steam. A compressor big enough to run a 400 lb. utility hammer is a major acquisition in and of itself, and while it may be more work and danger to run steam, consider me a fool for that particular romance. I make a lot of damascus as part of my full time knifemaking career, and a bigger hammer can really help with some aspects. I imagine running a steam day or two a week for big hammer work, the rest of the time my Little Giant will suffice.

I realize it's a long shot, but I thought I'd put this here and bump it from time to time to remind folks out there, fellow lusters after big chunks of cast iron, that that hammer they might see over in the weeds while looking at a lathe has likely got a home with me. Thanks for your consideration!

I was with you until the 200-500 pound ram part.

Larry

If you are patient, one will turn up. Be prepared to either go retrieve it (most likely out of state) or pay a lot for shipping - They are not light. I'll keep a look out for you. Jake

I hope you are successful in finding a steam hammer. It is likely a case of being almost too late. Chances are a lot of steam hammers in abandoned industrial buildings were left standing where they were until the real estate under them got too valuable. I've seen steam hammers working, and it is one of those things that, if a person is susceptible, "gets into their souls". It happened to me when I was a kid, seeing steam hammers in use at the old Cape Ann Tool in Rockport, Massachusetts, and then, in high school on a class trip to Bethlehem Steel.

When I worked in Marquette, Michigan in 1976-77, I was an engineer on the construction of (3) more units at the Presque Isle Station, a coal fired powerplant. Adjacent to the powerplant were the yards, shops, and ore dock of the Lake Superior and Ishpeming Railroad (L S & I). The LS & I had the original shops there- long since gone to make way for an extended coal storage area. Back then, the L S & I car shop had a working forge shop. By that point in time, they were running the steam hammers on compressed air. The air receivers to store air for the hammers were two old locomotive boilers. The flues had been removed, and heavier sheets with through stays had been put in to convert the boilers to large air receivers, but the fireboxes/mudlegs and steam domes were still on those boiler shells. The boilers/air receivers stood outside the shop on their own foundations.

In the shop, the forge hearths were made from old smokebox rings cut from steam locomotive boilers. A venturi arrangement using shop compressed air was used to blow each forge hearth. The smiths would open maybe a 3/4" valve to control air to the venturi, and had plenty of blast for their fires when they needed it.

Mostly, they were closed-die forging ladder rungs and other hardware for the hopper cars used for hauling taconite (iron ore) and iron pellets. These cars took a beating. The smiths were a couple of characters. The older of the two had been running the steam hammers for years. He showed me his control of the hammer, the usual bringing the hammer down at full speed and force for a forging blow, then stopping it just shy of the anvil. He would take a "strike anywhere" wood watch and put it on the anvil, and then bring the hammer down with what seemed maximum speed and force, stopping just shy of the matchstick, but with enough contact with the match head to ignite it. Naturally, this same smith would kid around and ask me to put my hand on the anvil of his hammer so he could do the same thing with hammer control. I wasn't that crazy.

I was always impressed and moved by steam hammers, so can fully understand your wanting to own and operate one. It is also a case of having sufficient funds to purchase, move, and re-erect the hammer. Those hammers required properly designed and built foundations. The hammer frame was often on one foundation, while the anvil was on another independent foundation. Reinforced concrete foundations were required, and often, these sat on timber mats (creosoted timbers laid in two mats, criss cross fashion, and lagged together with tie rods). A lot depended on the soil conditions where the hammer was to be located and used. A lot also depended on the neighborhood. An industrial area is one thing, but having a steam hammer in suburbia is quite another.

Recently enough, I was looking for a shop to make some parts for the rigging of a steamship up in Buffalo, NY. I came upon a listing for a working steam hammer forge shop. I called them up, and while they could not do the job we needed, specializing in open die forgings rather than more of blacksmithing, they were quite interested in our project- as I was in their shop. They have been in Buffalo forever. Originally, they took steam from mains in the street to run their hammers. Back in the day, Buffalo had steam distribution from central plants. Apparently, this was high enough pressure steam to run hammers. The steam distribution ended some years ago, so the forge shop put in compressors and receivers to run the hammers on air. I was amazed to find a shop still running what started out as steam hammers, let alone doing open die forging.

I can only imagine what having one's own steam hammer will entail. A forge shop made of corrugated sheet steel, able to be opened to the outside during summers, clinker and cinders on the floor (compacted), dim natural light, and at least a jib crane to handle and support the work. Probably a large coal fired forge hearth or an oil fired furnace to get the steel hot, and a large air receiver or two (or three) with piping running in the overhead to supply the hammer.
Rotary screw compressors make possible getting large amounts of compressed air from relatively small packages with little or no setup or additional construction needed. Hopefully, a rotary screw compressor in a sound attenuated enclosure so the only sounds heard are the sounds of the steam/air hammer and forge shop sounds. I suppose an old steam hammer, if not already converted to run on air, will need to be "tightened up"- seems like steam engines and similar, when run on steam, can tolerate a lot more wear on things like piston rings, cylinder walls, and valves. Try running the same engine in that same sloppy condition on air, and it often will barely run and has a lot more blowby.

Having your own steam/air hammer forge shop is a nice idea. I hope it comes to pass. The boiler is the harder part. A high pressure boiler capable of making the kind of steam flow needed to run the hammer in short bursts, then having the ability to hold a head of steam in between forgings is another matter. Something like a packaged firetube boiler would work. I say firetube as these boilers are a lot more "forgiving" as far as being able to handle load swings. You'd need some kind of steam separator on the boiler so that when the hammer was suddenly working hard, there was less chance of carryover of water (priming). You'd also need to be on the ball about water chemistry. You'd be running the hammer with the steam exhausting to atmosphere, so you'd be constantly adding new water to the boiler. This means continual chemical treatment to adjust pH, get rid of dissolved oxygen, and precipitate out "dissolved solids" (calcium, magnesium, iron, etc). You'd be needing steam at somewhere around 150 psig, so the boiler might then come under state or local laws requiring regular boiler inspections and having a licensed stationary engineer to run it. Add to that the cost of fuel to get the boiler hot, raise steam, and keep up a head of steam when forging.
I think most forge shops, unless they had a steam plant on premises for some other purposes- such as a steel mill with waste heat recovery boilers making steam for power as well as forging hammers- went over to compressed air. Once rotary screw compressors came on the scene, the matter of going over to compressed air got even easier and less expensive than erecting a huge recip compressor.

A boiler plant is a nice dream, but the reality is that it may be too much to handle along with a steam hammer. You'd need a crew to raise steam and look after the boiler, even a packaged boiler with automatic controls, given the kind of spikes and sudden shut-offs on steam flows, as well as to keep on top of water chemistry. There is a nice youtube of a forge shop in the Bengali region of India, where they are using a steam hammer. The forge shop is forging some kind of billets, heavy enough to need a crew of men to manhandle them in and out of the hammer, even with the help of a jib crane. The steam for the hammer is supplied by what looks like an old two-furnace Lancashire boiler, coal fired. Plenty of cheap labor, chances are regulations and complaining neighbors are non existant, and a coal fired firetube boiler of a sort that can handle the swings in steam demand. It's a classic forge shop, dimly lit by natural light, siding opened to the outside air, steam leaking, and everything covered in a mix of soot, steam cylinder oil and probably fine mill scale dust. I suppose the backwaters of India are one of the few places a shop like this can exist and be a viable business (and get away with running under those kinds of conditions).

Howrah Steam Hammer, West Bengal, India, 28 - YouTube

I think this is the video Joe's talking about.

I too harbor the desire to have a real forging/blacksmithing shop. Every time I drive by (twice a day) the large old steam hammer painted up as a display in front of a forge, I run through what id need to move it.

I've even got the air compressor to run it.

Larry, that thing is cute!

Jake, thanks, yes I most likely am looking for one on the west coast, and would go and trailer it home.
They occasionally turn up, often already converted to air. In the last two years I've missed out on a 250# Niles and a 300# C-burg.

Joe, I am happy to have inspired one of your recollections, I always enjoy reading them! I am aware of the associated issues with rigging and installing these beasts, having been a bit obsessed for years. I do already run a forging operation, so forges anvils vises smaller power hammer and forging press are already in house. I would have to add on to the building probably to fit a big hammer. Probably I'd dig and pour the foundation for the machine, then slab around that and build over it.

Luckily I do not live in suburbia, rather quite a rural area with some neighbors but plenty of elbow room. I make a lot of noise until early in the morning often, and haven't gotten a complaint yet!
As for the associated difficulties of running steam, no doubt you are correct as to the difficulty involved. Many hammers I've seen have already been converted to air at some point, a process which indeed involves re-fitting tighter seals. The tolerances for air, with less heat, are quite smaller than what is used for steam.
If I got a hammer and used it with air, I'd be on the lookout for a second hand rotary screw compressor for sure, perhaps one of the trailer-mounted ones seen on jobsites and at rental yards. They do come up for sale now and then even out here in the middle of nowhere.
The boiler part of the operation will require a lot of research and thought to make happen. I have been inspired by the Old-Time-Steam-Machine-Shop videos on Youtube, among others... although I'd need a lot more steam than he uses. Yes, a firetube boiler was in my head for this, dangerous but powerful and relatively simple. A perusal of pertaining code in my state reveals that apart from municipal codes a license is not required to run a boiler here.
The calcium-heavy water here could be an issue, on the other hand I live in an area with a lot of timber and scrap wood resources so fuel would not be much of a problem. That's one thing that makes it attractive.

Anyway, thanks guys for the attention, please remember me if you see one!

By the way Joe, I have watched that Howrah Steam Hammer, West Bengal vid many times. It's amazing! Big old Ross Rigby beast.

I know where there's a 1000lb Niles-Bement Pond that's available, converted to air already. But it's in Michigan, so dont know if you'd be interested in checking it out =)

There are some steam hammers listed for sale here .
http://www.machineco.com/forging.htm
They may not be exactly what you are looking for and are a long way from you but perhaps if you contact them they may know of a suitable one closer to you .
I have been to their place many years ago with my father and bought some small items but have no recent experience or connection with them .
Regards
Jim

Salem Straub:

I am glad you appreciated my post. A steam hammer forge shop would be something unique, moreso if it were a small shop owner such as yourself. The idea of a scrap wood fired boiler does make sense. Sawmills and woodworking mills fired their boilers on waste wood, considering it as "free fuel".

Of course, if you have a boiler capable of producing the steam at the pressure and flowrate for a hammer, you have another issue to deal with: that is the spikes and sudden drops in steam demand that a hammer will create. Some forge shop boiler plants had "steam accumulators" which I suspect were simply large unfired pressure vessels, well insulated, to hold a quantity of steam between the boilers and the hammers.

The other thing a lot of steam forge shops had was their own powerplants. These used steam engines to drive generators, and sometimes included a steam driven compressor (such as an Ingersoll-Rand Type 10). The reason for the powerplant was to keep base load on the boilers aside from taking advantage of the steam to make the electricity and compressed air for the plant. Keeping some base load on a boiler helps stabilize its operation, keeping some steam flow happening at a steady rate. The hammers, having more of sudden spikes from no demand to full demand, hitting a few strokes, then shutting off steam, would play hell with a boiler in terms of making steam and maintaining any kind of stable firing rate and water level.

So, if you put a steam hammer in, I hope you have plans for a steam engine to produce power for your shop, and last-but not least- a good full throated steam whistle. Firing on waste wood, you'll need a fireman or two. Managing a solid fuel fired boiler is not so hard as one might think. Once a good fire bed is established, and with the volume of water and large steam space in a firetube boiler, it is kind of like a "flywheel". It can ride through the spikes and sudden shutoffs of steam flow that a hammer would create. A solid fueled boiler with a steam engine to keep some baseload on it would be the ideal thing.

I recall that into the 1970's, there was a forge shop somewhere in western Pennsylvania that did a combination of forging work. Some was hammer work, and they also forged rings using roller forging machinery. This shop was steam driven. Aside from the hammers, which were steam hammers, they had an assortment of steam engines and generators and steam driven compressors. The power and compressed air was used for the other forging machinery such as the roller forging, as well as for other machine tools and air tools. That shop forged a lot of steel rings for things like cement mill kilns and other industrial uses. At some point in the past, they had forged locomotive tires there. From what I have learned, that shop is closed and done with. If you succeed in creating your own steam forge shop, you will be creating something that is almost extinct otherwise.

I would think you should investigate a self contained hammer like a Nazel. These are around but maybe expensive and operation is manageable by one person as well as not requiring a dedicated air compressor. There are also new made imports available from Europe and Asia but you probably know this already.

Self contained tends to be the go-to choice of most guys for a big hammer. Don't get me wrong, if the right one came up I'd jump all over it.

But a steam/utility has even more romance to me, is an even rarer beast nowadays, and can hopefully be had for cheaper yet, for scrap or for the price of hauling it away and saving it if I get lucky...
I want to save one from the jaws of doom, too many have gone quietly into that good night.

Plus, the control on them can be even more amazing than that of a Nazel et al. You can rig the levers and linkage to make them controllable with a treadle.

I can understand your romantic desire to save and use a steam hammer but then again, this is the "Practical" Machinists website ;-)

I use to run a Nazel, I believe it was a number 2 and the control was quite impressive with just the foot treadle. When folks came through on the nickel tour, I would show them how you could lay a dime on a 2x4 and bring the hammer down to just hit the dime hard enough to press it into the wood without leaving any other marks on the wood. I would show them the dime impressed in the wood and they would all nod their heads not quite impressed yet and then put the 2x4 back between the dies and turn it to toothpicks. Most would understand then. Can't imagine any reason you would need more control than that.

I know a few people running utility hammers that were originally steam, but they are all converted to air.
Running a steam plant for a hammer is going to be very expensive and very labor intensive.
Francis Orr, in Anacortes, and his son Adair Orr, who posts here, are involved in the steam hammer group that periodically fires up a real steam hammer in Lynden Wa- Here is a link to a post Adair wrote about it some years ago. They do it for a couple of days, once a year.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-115484.html

Adair is a good person to talk to about the practicality of this. He knows from experience.
In his own shop, he has an electric motor powered hammer... theres a reason for that.

Several utility hammers running on air in washington state as well.
Jim Garrett, who makes Nimba anvils, uses a 200 or 300 lb utility hammer, which, I believe, was originally steam.

I am not aware of a utility hammer being any more controllable than a self contained- most chambersburg and Nazel self contained hammers have pretty much identical valving and control as the equivalent sized utilities. They should run almost identically. Controllability in a big hammer has more to do with what kind of condition its in- many of the old hammers have not been rebuilt in 80 years or more, and usually have had not much maintaining either- remachining the ram of a 300lb hammer is a big, expensive job. Mark Krause is probably the only machinist mechanic in the US you could hire to rebuild or repair a big hammer like that- we are down to one guy who really knows more than just his own, personal hammer. He travels the US fixing power hammers- and the market can almost support ONE guy doing that.

I was in the old Johnstown blacksmith shop for the steel mill about ten years ago, with five or so very large steam hammers- the smallest is about a 600lb machine. Its a historic preservation site, and the building has been secured from destruction- and the steam feed line for those hammers was at least a 4" or maybe 6" steam line, which came from the main steel mill steam house. Needless to say, there is no longer steam being made on site.
If those hammers are ever going to run again, it will be by compressed air, not steam.
Many steam hammers have been converted over the years, as I understand it its mostly putting in tighter seals- the steam hammers leaked on purpose, to a minor degree, in the input plumbing. Probably had to do with expansion and contraction due to heat cycles, but I am not sure. I have had it explained to me, years ago, but I forgot.
With air, you want tighter connections.

If you are serious about a big hammer, you should really talk to Larry Langdon. He is moving to Idaho, but will still be pretty much the guy who knows whats for sale, and act as the middleman, he has bought and sold probably 20 or more power hammers in the last ten years or so. He knows everybody, and is experienced at rigging and moving big hammers.

In the Northwest, a hammer will not be cheap. Especially in the range up to 300lbs or so, which is the sweet spot for most small shops, they go for real money. Above 300lbs, they actually even drop in price- a 600lb hammer that might weigh 35,000 lbs and need a 50hp motor is a much tougher sell, and usually goes for closer to scrap, whereas a Nazel 2 or 3 is a much more saleable, and valuable hammer.
If you felt able, physically and financially, to handle a 600lb hammer, there are deals out there, for sure- but you have to figure on ten grand or so rigging, ten grand or so footings, the cost of bringing in 200 amps of 3 phase, and so on. Everything about a bigger hammer costs more.

Yeah, I talked to Larry. He was selling off a big mechanical or two recently. He's not had a line, to my knowledge, on an air hammer in a little while.

Utility hammers will normally have a better single blow capacity than self contained, unless you're talking about a Nazel "S" series hammer or a Massey Clearspace hammer (not too many in the States.)
A Nazel "S" hammer would be great, I only know of two around and they are ENORMOUS. A 14S! Crazy machine.

Let me add, I am aware of pretty much everything that has been said- yes they are big, require a ridiculous foundation, steam is highly impractical, air is the common solution, one needs a LOT of air, hammers are expensive and rare especially in the Northwest, rigging and moving them is a problem, self-contained hammers have as much control in most ways and are considered a better option by most, although one would need big 3 phase power...

I've read the threads, talked about them a lot, missed out on getting several of them over the years.
Believe me, I'm keeping an eye out through the normal avenues, of course my budget is low and I am aware of a machine or two that I could buy now if I had $10K-$20K and could drive that far for them.
I posted this thread because I know a lot of you guys are out there all over the US, sniffing out old machines and caches of cool rusty relics, chasing whatever machine may be your personal grail, and maybe, MAYBE, someone will see that old 300 lb. Niles or C-burg in the back of a fallen-down shed, or covered with blackberry vines in a junkyard, that I would never have otherwise known of. And maybe that person will have read this thread, and will drop me a note someday about a huge rusty beast that needs me. Yes it will probably ruin my life, but you guys will know all about the quixotic nature of trying to resurrect these monuments to our incredible past.
Again, thanks for your consideration!

ETA: Justin, I know about Ric's hammer- super cool but just too big to be practical at all for me.
Jim, I've visited that site many times- that big Niles is a sweet steam hammer, but about the same as Ric's 1000#, too big. The small no-name utility is about right, but missing the anvil and costs too much, considering that "little" detail. Thanks though, guys!

Chambersburg will still sell you a new General Utility hammer either steam or air driven from 100 to 500 pounds. They are under Ajax manufacturing now. I’d love to know what the cost of a new hammer would be.

Salem

Maybe this is one of the one's you mentioned

Would this one get you by for a while ?

Nazel Power Hammers for Sale : anvilfire Machinery Sales

Although Ajax CECO still list L model utility hammers on their website, in 750, 1000 and 1500lb sizes, the brochure is dated 2008, and my guess is that they havent made one since then.
US prices for something like this would be several hundred thousand dollars.
Mike Bondi once told me he got a quote from Chambersburg in the early 90s for a 125lb self contained, and it was $150,000 or so.
Factor in 25 years of inflation, and you are talking real money.

Most industry, worldwide, that is buying new open die forging hammers are buying from Anyang, in China, which is currently the largest manufacturer of hammers and presses for forging.
they are quite a bit cheaper than CECO, and they sell a lot of hammers all over the world.

this one is a nice size-
forging hammer assistant device for recorder and repeat human actions - YouTube

Salem Straub said:

A 14S! Crazy machine.

Click to expand...

I had to look that one up, it does certainly look "crazy".

Nazel No 14, Type S, Single blow hammer | Mauldin Machine
Bit of a project and two semi truck loads worth of machine.

Not sure what I'd do with it, but it sure would be cool.

Steven-Canada said:

Salem

Maybe this is one of the one's you mentioned

Would this one get you by for a while ?

Nazel Power Hammers for Sale : anvilfire Machinery Sales

Click to expand...

Steven, that's a wonderful machine at a good price, however it has sold some time ago... No Nazels or anything of that class up for sale there currently.
I am aware of a couple of Russian self contained hammers (Stanko maybe) at around 200lbs. and 400lbs. tup weight, for sale in the Toronto area currently- I believe they are up above $15K USD each though. There's a Beche 330 lb.'er for sale in the Great Lakes region too, $16.5 K and has been sitting there a while at that price. It needs work, too.
There are a few hammers out there now, but not priced so a bladesmith could get ahold of them. Perhaps a big forging shop could justify the expense.

Ries, indeed a C-burg hammer would be VERY expensive new these days, although I do know where a CH-3 self contained will be going up for sale on the west coast, later this year. I'm sure it will command a higher price than I can pay, though...