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Thread: W.F. & J. Barnes No 13 questions
10-01-2008, 01:27 PM #1
W.F. & J. Barnes No 13 questions
Recently I acquired (saved) an ancient machine that needs some attention.
Does anyone have a parts diagram or manual to reference ?
Its a W.F & J. Barnes No 13 33" between centers ,converted over to Electric L232 US PAT Sept 21 1880 Stamped on bed,May 6 1902 on the Carriage.
I spent a week scraping and wire brushing and removed 5 layers of paint and repainted it. Its looking decent now except for the broken toolrest and the lack of tooling.
What taper was used or can be used on the Headstock and Tailstock ?
The Compound Cross slide is broken at the upper dovetail I have someone trying to make a new one. The cross slide screw is bent and the nut is broken that drives the toolrest over the carriage.
I will try to get some Pics today.
Any one have any clue? I know parts for this are virtually impossible to find
10-01-2008, 09:09 PM #2
Need to clarify which part is broken. Does you lathe have a compound rest and cross slide? or just a cross slide? The compound rest was optional on those lathes, and required a different carriage.
As for the taper I recall it is a #2 morse taper.
10-01-2008, 09:56 PM #3
Pics of My Arn
Last edited by Bubba-Jet; 10-01-2008 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Error
10-01-2008, 10:20 PM #4
Timekiller its a compound No 16 is a common number on all parts involved
10-01-2008, 10:26 PM #5
compound rest and cross slide
You have the compound rest and cross slide option, on a lathe with line shaft legs. Wasn't foot powered.
The number 16 was a lot number so after final fitting it could be disassembled, painted and reassembled without mixing parts from other machines in the lot. A common practice back then, and still practiced today on some machines.
10-01-2008, 10:37 PM #6
screw and nut
The best bet on the cross feed screw may be to to purchase new acme threaded rod and brass nut and modify to fit the lathe. McMaster-Carr is a good source for small quantities of acme threaded rod and matching nuts. Remember the screw is likely has left hand threads. The precision acme is not required for this part. May be better but I couldn't justify the extra expense on this age machine.
10-01-2008, 11:46 PM #7
Ray ,Thanks for the Info ,as for the expense heck I only paid $25 for it so a few bucks more wont put Me in the poorhouse .There is a gear hidden under the apron that attaches to said screw that provides power to feed the toolrest for power surfacing.
10-03-2008, 12:09 AM #8
Last edited by Bubba-Jet; 10-03-2008 at 12:55 AM. Reason: Ill get it right ..
10-03-2008, 12:29 AM #9
25 bucks? you lucky bast@#!
that's a score!!
10-03-2008, 01:02 AM #10
My dovetail replacent didnt work out . $675 it too much for a 4"x4 1/4"x1 3/8' peice of steel.
10-03-2008, 10:45 AM #11
Is that for a finished machined part or just the raw material?
Also steel is not the best choice of material for this part unless a bearing material is added.
10-03-2008, 02:15 PM #12
Finished part, Dovetail on bottom cut end to end ,and dovetail on top to accept round toolrest Base.
10-04-2008, 10:44 AM #13
Nice old lathe! Your price can't be beat either!
You can probably repair (or have repaired) the broken cross slide by cutting off the entire side and bolting a piece on to replace the dovetail section. It's on the gib side, so it can be steel since nothing slides on it. Is the rest of the slide OK?
And the screw can be repaired by replacing the screw section like has been mentioned. That would save the gear. I have a 13" Barnes also -
and could get you dimensions of the cross slide nut if you need. I've seen folks fix a nut assembly like this by making an adapter to replace the original nut that has a new nut (bought with the screw) turned down and bonded in place. The space for the nut is tight on your lathe, so that would be an interesting part to make.
10-04-2008, 02:53 PM #14
Here's one on Boston CL if anyone is interested. I am absolutely not buying anything until I get my shop completed. It has a broken tailstock, maybe good for spares for one of you.
10-05-2008, 09:15 PM #15
10-05-2008, 09:27 PM #16
Irby I'll take ya up on that offer . Does your cross slide screw measure 19/32 X 6TPI (Left Hand Thread ) ?
I'm fearing the only place that I can get this made is by a Barnes Owner.
I quit messen with those pics look a the album at photobucket
Last edited by Bubba-Jet; 10-05-2008 at 10:30 PM. Reason: Thumbs.
10-07-2008, 02:08 PM #17
I tried to order 2 nuts at McMaster -Carr 5/8 X 6 Acme doesnt fit the Screw.What the heck size is it? My Go -to machinist measured it at 19/32 or.588( Height)and .170 thread to thread. Now they have their guy checking out what might work.
Last edited by Bubba-Jet; 10-07-2008 at 07:48 PM.
10-07-2008, 02:39 PM #18
Barnes did use 1/32" sized materials and standards. 5/8" is .625" also on better quality acme screws in this size range, the major thread diameter will be approximately .010 under the normal or call out diameter. 5/8 would measure approximate .615" actual major diameter. On rolled, not cut, threads the major dimension may vary more.
You need a 19/32"-6 nut I hadn't run into this problem on a #13 or #5-1/2, but have on other Barnes equipment. Seen a few 1/2"-12 bolts, 1/2"-13 is the standard today.
Most equipment manufactured 80+ years ago has some odd thread pitches, or size materials. One reason suggested replacing the screw. Get known matched standards. Wear was another reason.
10-11-2008, 08:56 PM #19
Bubba_Jet to me,
Does your cross slide screw measure 19/32 X 6TPI (Left Hand Thread ) ?
1 turn 0.165 measured [0.167 calculated]
2 turns 0.333 measured [0.333 calculated]
3 turns 0.498 measured [0.500 calculated]
4 turns 0.665 measured [0.667 calculated]
5 turns 0.831 measured 90.833 calculated]
So I guess the screw is 6TPI!
I took the slide off and apart today. I'll post some pictures later. The brass piece that holds the compound slide in place and also acts as the clamp, is an arrangement I haven't seen before. I wonder if all the Barnes lathes used it? Ray will know!
10-11-2008, 11:00 PM #20
Update : ) Metalcaster Found .Diamonds fixes Nut.!
I finially got My Backyardmetalcasting account working and found someone willing to Cast the slide.Hopefully the mould will be on its way to Oregon by Monday morning. Got a local Machinist that will do the Milling work
Irby and Ray ,I solved the Cross-Slide screw dilemma.The Cross-Slide screw is one peice ,so that was a much larger peice of metal when it was started. I can see the Lathe marks and there is a machining flaw caused by the operator,He didnt stop the machine on the first or second pass while cutting the threads,and ran the bit up on the shoulder by the Gear .
Those two 5/8 X6nuts got me thinking.So I drilled one out 1/32 " ,still wouldn't fit then I cut one in half and found what was the problem. The Acme threads are fatter than the screws I found a Needle point Diamond bit and put it in the Dentist drill and Made It Work
.I tack welded the 4 peices together.It'll Work Just Fine !
Im still guessing what the post looks like,Irby says his is brass ? then it has to be two peices.what small peice I do have is magnetic and how it's broke sure looks casted to Me.I plan to make it steel .