Advice About a Universal Boring Machine co. HBM

On the local Craigslist there is a listing for two HBMs, one is a 3" the other is a 4".

Looks like this machine, https://www.google.com/search?q=uni...gindex%2Fimagedetail.aspx%3Fid%3D4197;709;540.

The catalog weight for the machine (with tailstock) is 41,000lbs it has a 6MT spindle taper. The only tooling the machine has is the tailstock.

The kicker is that the seller needs to sell the two HBMs and a bunch of other manual equipment to make room for a larger HBM and CNC VBM that is showing up in the coming weeks.

The 3" would be the machine that would suit me best (probably 1/4 the weight), but the guy wants the 4" out first.

Since the guy needs it out yesterday, and it's got no real tooling to speak of, I'd offer him slightly above scrap.

Just wondering what the HBM experts (Tyrone that's you) think of the machine? Presumably 40's era.
No specific questions, just figure I should ask the collective genius of PM before I go to see it (more correctly, if I go to see it).

I have never operated a HBM without a DRO and would think it would be a bitch not having.

The place where I served my apprenticeship had a 3" universal. It was a 1920s vintage machine, similar but different. We had built a ton of tooling for it, including a tool holder that bolted on that would accept #50 NMTB tool holders for milling. Boring bars and tool spiders for them for bores up to 36".
A HBM is a super versatile machine. If you have a chance to get one, do it.

Yeah I'm familiar with their reputation for versatility.

Has anyone ever slid one off a rollback?
Probably insane to move one that way, but it would be the only way I could move it.

Anyone have a guess about height?
Newer 4" Lucas is 9'8".

What's the best way to go about inspecting it for wear?
Bed wear and quill run out are the obvious things, anything not so obvious?

alskdjfhg --

Here's a link to a bit of information about the Universal Boring Machine: The Universal Boring Mill Page That page contains a link to a small photo showing the machine being winched up a ramp onto a roll-back towtruck.

Bullard bought Universal and moved manufacturing to Bullard's plant. If I recall correctly, the post-buyout machines were branded Universal - Bullard at first, then simply Bullard.

John Garner said:

That page contains a link to a small photo showing the machine being winched up a ramp onto a roll-back towtruck.

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Thanks for the link.

I guess if you can do it with a 3", you can do it with it's bigger brother.

then simply Bullard

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I have seen ONE Bullard HBM in my career - it was at P&WA I think

alskdjfhg said:

Yeah I'm familiar with their reputation for versatility.

Has anyone ever slid one off a rollback?
Probably insane to move one that way, but it would be the only way I could move it.

Click to expand...

I had mine delivered like that with zero dramas. It's only a baby Kearns OA model, approx 4 tonnes.

PDW

Hey Matt, is the 3" a Universal also? There's a thread here about the one I bought a year ago.

Weighed 10 tons, nice flat bottom, be easy for a rollback though I found a harder way to go.

20 tons is surely overweight even for a tandem axle rollback. I think.

Scott

I had a 10K lb G+L dragged in on rollback, no problem.

About the ones near you. Several have been on ebay for much less money and no takers. Plus you have to pay loading! Another thing, these things are getting really old. They are most certainly soft way machines and the chips have been dropping onto the ways for, 70(?) years. What condition are the ways in?

svs said:

Hey Matt, is the 3" a Universal also? There's a thread here about the one I bought a year ago.

20 tons is surely overweight even for a tandem axle rollback. I think.

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Yes they are both Universals.

It might be for some, but the rollback driver I found to move the 5CK has a legal capacity of 48,000lbs, but he said the truck can handle 53,000 (IIRC).
Starting To Unload Photo by mebunting | Photobucket

Mebfab said:

About the ones near you. Several have been on ebay for much less money and no takers. Plus you have to pay loading! Another thing, these things are getting really old. They are most certainly soft way machines and the chips have been dropping onto the ways for, 70(?) years. What condition are the ways in?

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I don't know the condition, I would assume fairly decent becuase they said they were runnning a job on the 4" when I called.

Between the age, needing to get it moved, lack of real tooling, I'm not intereted in it unless it's a screaming deal that would justify the total PITA it would be to get it moved.

Hi Guys, when I click on the link it goes to a site with dozens of images of all sorts of machines, you need to be more specific. I've only ever seen the photo's of " Universal " boring machines on this site. I doubt wether many if any made it across the pond, we had plenty of good makers of our own Hor Bores over here. Only really " Giddings & Lewis " of the US makers had any real market share and that was mainly after their tie up with " Fraser " to become " Giddings, Lewis. & Fraser ".

Most Hor Bores lend themselves to that method of un loading. It's pretty straight forward. Most of the weight is mainly low down and the bases are flat. They're pretty hard to tip over. One member on here unloaded a 40 ton ( 80,000 lbs ) machine with a big fork lift though.

John mentioned " Bullard " Hor bores, obviously I've never one in the flesh but I do remember seeing an article about one in a trade mag years ago. It was a 5" spindle machine and looked really nice. A very stylish design.

You can use a borer without a Digital Readout just as long as it's got Vernier Scales. That's how all the machines I worked on were operated before the early 1970's when read outs started to become popular. It's pretty obvious a read out is much better than a Vernier especially when you're milling etc.

When I was buying for customers I made a rule that unless the machine was a real gift I wouldn't entertain a machine that wasn't under power. I got my fingers burnt once buying a machine partly dismantled, it was pretty cheap to buy but the work I had to put in to it to get it up to standard made it quite expensive. Never again.
This particular machine had 13 ( yes thirteen ) electric motors all over the machine, it even had one for raising the pendant cable by power and another for moving the pendant cable in and out by power !

When I got it all put together and powered up the only thing that worked properly was the lights for the Vernier scales ! I could have cried. The spindle took an age to run up to full speed, power feeds were the same, no RPT at all, no power clamping. The MD of this particular company didn't speak to me again for about 18 months ! So be very careful and insist on seeing them running or walk away.

The lack of tooling is a blow, the outer support ( tailstock to you ) is no use at all without the line boring bars

See if you can find a little 3" spindle " Kearns" " OB " for sale. They were a great little machine.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Hi Guys, when I click on the link it goes to a site with dozens of images of all sorts of machines, you need to be more specific

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It should have defaulted to one being larger than the others.

I normally don't link ads that I'm considering, but due to the circumstance and the (IMHO) outrageous price, I'll just link the ad.
Harizantal Boring Mill machine tools

The 4" doesn't appear to have a DRO, but the 3" does.

They are currently under power, but will be cut here soon if not already.

Those machines don't look nearly as large as my G&L so I doubt even the big one would be over 30,000lb. I see no problem in a big rollback handling them.

I took my 3" Universal across a scale....will guarantee 19k lbs.

Machine in add looks to have a deeper table front to back, but otherwise "identical". Same blue porch paint even.

I've got a Farm CDL and will say 48k lbs. is a reasonable Gross weight for that rollback. Not Net capacity. Legally.

Based on the straight and combination trucks we run I'd guess Tare weight of that rig at 18-20k lbs.

Here's the thread on mine.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...etc-universal-boring-machine-co-3-hbm-283067/

Scott

alskdjfhq: You asked about wear, they are sorta like old lathes, most wear in the table and saddle ways will be near the spindle, up close. Check to see if looks like it oils itself pretty good. I never run a Universal, but a couple of G & L's. Good luck.

JH

Noob questions:.....

How is the MT6 tooling to find? I'd just look for a MT6-MT5 adapter and use lathe tooling in it.
Are there MT endmill holders (I would imagine so, but how common are they)?
This uses the two draw keys to hold the tool in the taper so there is no drawbar right?
Your supposed to bolt facemills to the spindle face right?
Is the boring and facing head unobtainum? (rhetorical question, pretty sure I know the answer to that one....)

I really should wait for a later model machine with an NMTB50 spindle and outboard supports......

svs said:

Based on the straight and combination trucks we run I'd guess Tare weight of that rig at 18-20k lbs.

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That's what I though, asked him a few time cause I didn't believe it. He said that the capacity of the truck was 53,000lbs (kinda an odd number).
I also asked him if he would move a yard forklift, he said up to about a 20k lift capacity (aprox 45klbs) he could use the rollback, anything bigger, he'd have to use his double drop deck.

James H Clark said:

alskdjfhq: You asked about wear, they are sorta like old lathes, most wear in the table and saddle ways will be near the spindle, up close. Check to see if looks like it oils itself pretty good.

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Thanks.

Got some boatachors lathes so got a few examples of what the machine shouldn't look like.

I find the MT6 tooling virtually impossible to find without a machine attached or a fortune. They do make MT facemill holders as I have several that came with my machine. I was also lucky enough to get a bunch of Beaver quick change tooling so I can change out drills, endmills, and small facemills with a 1/4 turn spanner wrench instead of driving the retainer key in and out all the time. Our 379 Pete rollback at work has a 56000lb gross but it weighs about 20K empty so you can haul about 36000lb and still be legal. I moved my 26000lb Cincinnati VMC with it winching it on and pulling it off with a tractor on some UHMW shoes I made for the jack bolts.

Yeah no 6 Morse Taper Spindles are a pain. A smaller machine that takes no 5 Morse Taper tooling is a better bet.
You could always look for a planer type machine if you want a small spindle with a big table.
Regards Tyrone.

After running HBM's and DeVlieg's for years I would skip a MT machine in favor of NMTB50 spindle. If you're in dire need of it then that's one thing, otherwise I would keep looking. HBM's are very common in OH and I imagine the same is true in Texas. I would much prefer to hold out for a DeVlieg if you can.