Any glaring deficiencies in this old lathe?

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

I'm not a lathe guy, but I need one to make some small and relatively sloppy prototype parts. I want to try and purchase a machine that has future potential, and not some chi-com crap. I'd like to keep my expenditure to $1800 or less.

Before I go to the expense of visiting this old dsg, I wanted to post what pictures I have and see if any of you can see any glaring deficiencies in it - missing parts, shafts, leads, etc. This is a 21, no serial number available, not much info besides what you see. I believe this is a "newer" model, as I do not see a motor hanging off the end.

It appears as though a lever is missing from the headstock, but from other photos/videos I've seen, this is normal for the 21.

It is not currently under power, but I will be able to put power to it when I inspect it. Unless I purchase a straight edge, the way condition will be a guess.

Thanks for the help

L Vanice · Sep 15, 2014

The obvious problem is that it is going to be hard to move. You did say "small parts," so I guess you could do your work with a much smaller machine.

Larry

alskdjfhg · Sep 15, 2014

A DS&G deficient?!?!?

Look up the DS&G page over on Tonys site if you have any doubts about it's original build quality.

Mabey Tyrone can give you some info about this particular machine, he knows English machines.

It looks like a type 20, but I really wouldn't know.

CarlBoyd · Sep 15, 2014

Big lathe for small parts

SLG said:
I'm not a lathe guy, but I need one to make some small and relatively sloppy prototype parts. I want to try and purchase a machine that has future potential, and not some chi-com crap. I'd like to keep my expenditure to $1800 or less.

Before I go to the expense of visiting this old dsg, I wanted to post what pictures I have and see if any of you can see any glaring deficiencies in it - missing parts, shafts, leads, etc. This is a 21, no serial number available, not much info besides what you see. I believe this is a "newer" model, as I do not see a motor hanging off the end.

It appears as though a lever is missing from the headstock, but from other photos/videos I've seen, this is normal for the 21.

It is not currently under power, but I will be able to put power to it when I inspect it. Unless I purchase a straight edge, the way condition will be a guess.

Thanks for the help

While you can make small parts on a big lathe it is a pain. Surface finish is at least partially dependent on cutting speed. DSG made nice lathes, but the spindle speed on this big lathe will not get you the high RPMs you need to cut small parts with good surface finish. If you want to do a lot of filing and polishing you can get there.

I have a "too big" lathe. I got it when I needed it "now", and it was the only thing I could afford. It's not the best for the tasks I do, but it will get er done. I have a mill that is too small, it won't always get er done.

CarlBoyd

tnmgcarbide · Sep 15, 2014

can you find out if it has hard ways ? some DSGs didn't have them .

James H Clark · Sep 15, 2014

SLG: The condition of the ways need not be guess work. Before moving the carriage at all, carefully clean and oil the ways next to the carriage and tailstock. Do not use an air hose. This is to avoid getting any crap under the ways of the carriage and also the tailstock. Then observe the ways for wear and scratches in the vicinity of the headstock. I would also pull the top off the headstock and look for chipped gear teeth and observe the oil level and condition. All this, before powering it up. Then listen for noisy bearings and gears. Take along a set of mechanic's stethoscope. Good luck.

JH

SBAER · Sep 15, 2014

I think I would want to clean the ways and leadscrew before I moved the carriage too much, the lathe looks pretty dirty. The easiest test of lathe condition I've found is to take a light test cut over a length of 4 or 5" with a sharp tool and cutting fluid on a 2" diameter piece of aluminium held in the three jaw chuck. Measure the diameter at various places along the length of the cut with a micrometer to see if it cuts a taper. For my purposes I would want the taper to be under 0.001" over that length but it depends on what kind of work you need to do with it.

stonehaven · Sep 15, 2014

how much is the asking price on it

Limy Sami · Sep 15, 2014

A DS&G 21 is a BIG 21'' lathe, ...............look at circa 10,000 lbs

I believe it's an older model, pic #2 what looks like a Brit motor of the vintage, ''poking / peeping out'' beyond the extreme left headstock lever.

Older models have low spindle speeds.

Pretty sure it has a removable gap piece, which in itself won't make much of a difference with a DS&G, but make sure it's been put back properly.

Apart from that it's go see time.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Sep 15, 2014

It's a " Dean, Smith & Grace " so you've got a real head start there. The " Rolls-Royce " of lathes in most people's opinion, certainly lots of Brits think so. It looks to be a mid to late 1950's machine, maybe even an early 1960's machine. Nice size of machine for a small shop. There doesn't seem to be a lot missing going off the photos. It's hard to say what condition it's in regarding accuracy etc. You'll know more when you've had a run. I'd take some steel bar and a lathe tool or two and try a test cut if humanly possible.

Last time I repaired one of these a client of mine had bought one just like the one in your photo's but about 10ft between centres. He'd got it for a song and I installed it for him. When we started turning some big shafts the surface finish was pretty poor. When I adjusted up the bearings the finish was no better, in fact it was probably worse ! The bottom line was we removed the spindle and the taper " Timken " bearings at the chuck end were really badly pitted. So right away he had to fork out for a complete set of spindle bearings, not cheap, but at least you could get them then.

DSG did a similar machine with plain bearings made from phosphor bronze for ultra precise work. I think I once worked on one of those but it was many moons ago. The data plate on the left of the speed selector should tell you what bearings it has. Just out of interest there are headstock holding down bolts behind those little plates on the front. I see the machine has a factory built cross slide drilling attachment as well as a fixed steady.

Regards Tyrone.

johnoder · Sep 15, 2014

If you cannot run it, at least open the head stock and see if the lovely jewelry is intact. Lots of unobtanium in there I'll bet.

As noted in your previous related post, the spindle nose is AT LEAST a D1-8", suggesting this is certainly no wimp lathe

shamanj · Sep 15, 2014

Unless you need a big ass lathe, don't get a big ass lathe. 1 meter between centers is plenty big enough for most "Shop" work. And like old mate said, decent RPM is important for things like aluminum, brass and delrin. Particularly polishing by hand if doing so. Also, don't be so fast in the sub 1800 dollar arena to not buy Chinese (You used a much less... obtuse word earlier). A prototyping machine with decent rpm that will be relatively OK for minor work is what-china-do. In fact we recently posted about one for 1800 that i'm converting to CNC and another dude was getting for minor operations.
Get the machine that suits the job. Also moving something like that may cost you up to a few grand (depending depending etc etc)
That is the market they fill. I certainly wouldn't be trying to turn anything like a decent piston on it though....

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

tnmgcarbide said:
can you find out if it has hard ways ? some DSGs didn't have them .

Unless there is another way to tell, I would have to test the hardness. Most mfg's brag about hard ways by installing a badge of some sort. And the seller knows less than I do about it.

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

James H Clark said:
SLG: The condition of the ways need not be guess work. Before moving the carriage at all, carefully clean and oil the ways next to the carriage and tailstock. Do not use an air hose. This is to avoid getting any crap under the ways of the carriage and also the tailstock. Then observe the ways for wear and scratches in the vicinity of the headstock. I would also pull the top off the headstock and look for chipped gear teeth and observe the oil level and condition. All this, before powering it up. Then listen for noisy bearings and gears. Take along a set of mechanic's stethoscope. Good luck.

JH

Excellent - thank you

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

Limy Sami said:
A DS&G 21 is a BIG 21'' lathe, ...............look at circa 10,000 lbs

I believe it's an older model, pic #2 what looks like a Brit motor of the vintage, ''poking / peeping out'' beyond the extreme left headstock lever.

Older models have low spindle speeds.

Pretty sure it has a removable gap piece, which in itself won't make much of a difference with a DS&G, but make sure it's been put back properly.

Apart from that it's go see time.

According to Tony's site, this lathe was available with plain bearings or tapered roller bearings. Top speed on the plain bearing was 600, while the rollers went up to 800.

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

johnoder said:
If you cannot run it, at least open the head stock and see if the lovely jewelry is intact. Lots of unobtanium in there I'll bet.

As noted in your previous related post, the spindle nose is AT LEAST a D1-8", suggesting this is certainly no wimp lathe

I will raise the hood, and see what's in there. Speaking of unobtanium, this lathe came with three change gears, and more were available as an option - bet those are nowhere to be found.

Limy Sami · Sep 15, 2014

Thought / warning and an important one !!.

Make sure there's oil in the headstock, and when you start the motor, make sure oil is dripping past the telltale glasses BEFOREengaging the clutch.

If the oil's not flowing after 30 seconds at the very most, walk away - better yet RUN.

SLG · Sep 15, 2014

shamanj said:
Unless you need a big ass lathe, don't get a big ass lathe. 1 meter between centers is plenty big enough for most "Shop" work. And like old mate said, decent RPM is important for things like aluminum, brass and delrin. Particularly polishing by hand if doing so. Also, don't be so fast in the sub 1800 dollar arena to not buy Chinese (You used a much less... obtuse word earlier). A prototyping machine with decent rpm that will be relatively OK for minor work is what-china-do. In fact we recently posted about one for 1800 that i'm converting to CNC and another dude was getting for minor operations.
Get the machine that suits the job. Also moving something like that may cost you up to a few grand (depending depending etc etc)
That is the market they fill. I certainly wouldn't be trying to turn anything like a decent piston on it though....

The seller claims to have a forklift available, and I have a trailer. But it is large - I need to determine if this lathe is a "want", or a "need".

Tyrone Shoelaces · Sep 15, 2014

SLG said:
Unless there is another way to tell, I would have to test the hardness. Most mfg's brag about hard ways by installing a badge of some sort. And the seller knows less than I do about it.

All the DSG's I worked on of the era had un hardened cast iron ways. Sorry to be a disappointment.

Regards Tyrone.

swatkins · Sep 15, 2014

SLG said:
But it is large - I need to determine if this lathe is a "want", or a "need".

Give us some idea of the size of parts you will be making..... A large lathe will work your ass off, tools cost more ,they take up a lot of room and take bigger electrical circuits to run. Making a 2" part is a hell of a lot easier on a 10 to 12" lathe.

Any glaring deficiencies in this old lathe?

Cast Iron

Attachments

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Titanium

Similar threads