Thread: Baltimore Pratt & Whitney (pics, stats)

Several people have noticed the Pratt & Whitney lathe on the Baltimore Craigslist,

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/1124798702.html

I was able to go see the lathe today, took some pictures and measurements. From a condition standpoint, the machine has some significant issues, I'll comment accordingly above each pic. Seller says the price on the P&W is very negotiable. I didn't find a serial #, but there is a riveted placard on the tailstock legs showing the # "2508".

The seller also has a modern Logan. w/ capstan style turret, saddle w/ an Aloris toolpost- was apparently recently in service, looks pretty complete, and might be a good deal. Its face-down in the dirt- asked him about that, apparently they "placed" it there to clear the trailer for the P&W. Didn't look like it had fallen- but no telling what might be going on w/ the apron- the turret limit rods were bent, unfortunately.

He does not cover the machines, so I'd urge anyone interested to jump.



Machine came from an Amish shop up in PA, the prev owner powered this machine w/ an air motor- apparently ran his whole shop from lathe to fans on compressed air to get around the no electricity rule.





Missing shields. Belt drives the feed/thread box, powered thru a geartrain beneath the spindle.





Backgear shaft entirely missing- teeth on extant gears look OK but did not check them all.








I'm not entirely sure how the feed/thread setup works- clearly this is the gear selector, the feed/thread options are well-specified on the placard.






The chuck is nice- pretty new as per the seller. Key is awful. Not my place to harangue the seller. Spindle front bearing has significant problems; nearly .010 slop up and down, about half that front/back. This is actual play- not flex, I suspect its worn badly egg-shaped.. presumably fixable given enough elbow grease. No sign of recent lubrication in the oiler (which is a neato spring-loaded affair).




Note the riser block.. this lathe looks like its about an 18" swing, more like 14" without the risers.





Controls all seem to be there but I did not exercise them beyond the threading lever. About .060 backlash on the cross-feed, compound feed does not turn with reasonable hand pressure.



(continued in next post)

Hideous tray welded right onto the bed. I guess the saddle doesn't go there, but really.






More snazzy P&W fitting, and a Putnam-esque sort of bed casting...




Shop-made crossfeed cover, and a nice toolholder. No threading dial, however.




No taper attachment hardware. Nice carbide toolholders, I moved them out of the water puddle.




Tried to get the elegant bed casting here, but the shadows weren't helping. Its a very pretty bed design.




Regards,

Greg

Looking at the theading handle, by the gearbox, that may well be a single point
dog clutch there. Which would account for the lack of a threading dial.

Basically you leave the half nuts engaged, and use that control to move the
carriage back and forth while threading. Very similar to a hardinge setup,
if my guess is correct.

No thread dial needed.

Jim

what did they use to compress the ari with if no electricity? Steam engine?

Its a 14, as I mentioned to Greg these had no formal QC like the only slightly larger 16".

It had a T/A, its just been dropped off along the way. The flat on back with the tee slot is for mounting same, and the eyed casting sticking out from CS cover held the block that rides in the slot in the taper bar.

All P&W lathes of any size (13" up, then later 12" up) had reversible lead screw as an apron control. Funny, now that I said that this one does not appear to have it on apron.

This immediately predated the Model B gear head that appeared mid twenties, in 13, 16 and 20" size.


Note SECOND cross slide which appears as a thinish plate under the regular CS. This is how P&W handled the T/A movement issue. This design had no telescoping CS screw.


John Oder

If it were closer to me I might be interested in it as a parts machine. It's chuck would fit mine I would imagine. Every thing on mine seems to work so I don't know what I would really need this for. But you don't seem to see many of these around, or at least I don't. Don't have a picture to share of the box of change gears that came with this lathe. The box is in kind of beat up shape, but it is a quality box that I believe is original issue, with each gear having it's own slot. The box has about .5 of grease and gorp preserving it. Some one should save this for parts anyway. The one listed had a very cool, but newer drive, mine is an old Lima arrangement. Cheers, John.

Originally Posted by loggerhogger

what did they use to compress the ari with if no electricity? Steam engine?

Diesel usually. I've been to several Amish woodworking shops in eastern Maryland that used either air or hydraulic motors on everything. That was not allowed in the Amish community I grew up around in NY- they could have diesel power plants, but had to run everything with line shafts. They were allowed to use vee belts, though.
Andy

Looks like it COULD be a nice lathe.........but $1000.00 and it's missing parts/been welded on? I'm sure someone could bring this back to life, but the seller really needs a dose of reality. Perhaps I'm wrong and the lathe is comparitively rare, but as a working machine the price strikes me as a little "out there".....

Greg, thank you for your efforts. Too often the seller's pics and description fall very short.

Thanks for the close, photographic examination of this lathe, Greg.

As John points out, this machine predates the Model B gear head - and many of the features and stylistic qualities of the Model B are taken directly from this machine. The shape of the cast bed webbing remained identical through the last of the B's - as did the basic form of the TA attachment pad, apron, saddle, and cross slide; features were added as the years progresses - but the form remained true to this machine's style.

Thanks for sharing the photos, Greg - I'd never seen one of these machines from as many angles as you've shown here - and they have provided me with a very interesting insight into the lineage of the features on my Model B from roughly 30 years later.

-Carl

Thanks guys.

I'm thinking I'm going to try pouncing on that Logan (or could be a Clausing- seller said it was Logan though). Always wanted a compact turret lathe, this one has threading too- hope its not materially beat up from sitting on its front.

Greg

Originally Posted by jim rozen

Looking at the theading handle, by the gearbox, that may well be a single point
dog clutch there. Which would account for the lack of a threading dial.

Basically you leave the half nuts engaged, and use that control to move the
carriage back and forth while threading. Very similar to a hardinge setup,
if my guess is correct.

No thread dial needed.

Jim

That lever acts on the feed box, not the lead screw. The screw was driven by loose change gears that are missing from this lathe.
Andy

My first working lathe was one of those. It was a good machine although mine was probably worn beyond anything a pro would want to use. I'm not a pro and knew so little at the time that it was all a learning experience. Ultimately I did some reasonably good work with it, including making a screwed in valve guide for my 1910 REO - the only good lathe threading I've ever done. The price is silly however. There are plenty of machines out there for half the price that are just as good. It does need change gears also.

Joe P

The owner is not experienced with machine tools- I believe his price is mostly conjectural, he did emphasize to me that the price was very much up for negotiation. The lathe is still on the trailer, he did mention that he'd be willing to deliver locally at least- don't know what he'd charge though.

His shop area is a bunch of old WW2 or previous vintage garages for the surrounding houses. Many of the bays had the separating walls knocked out to make bigger space. He does welding, fabrication, and hauling of stuff. Access to 95N/S is reasonable, and there is some turn-around space at various places to help w/ navigating a trailer.

Regards,

Greg

Of course on mine Joe P {Panhead} recognises the pretty steady rest huh? I don't know where I would of ever of found one of those. Don't know if I will ever use it, but I will have it if I need it. Many good folks on this PM site, Thanks Joe P.

Cheers, John.

Bad news- the seller dropped the lathe off his trailer while unloading. Its now pretty much a wreck. Motor mount arm broken, apron handwheel smashed to bits, many of the nice flat castings are snapped. Unfortunately, this guy deals in scrap- and thats how he treats his "outside" stuff.

I had gone back to put some money down on the Logan (which has some handle damage- nothing too bad), could not believe what a state that poor P&W was in. Heaven only knows how he tried to unload it.

Regards,

Greg

Well, he went from the $1K asking price down to $20 scrap value pretty quickly.

-Carl

just an update, he re-posted yesterday, mentions the fall-over, new price $300/neg

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tls/1147195626.html