Having seen this lathe in old engravings of Boulton & Watt’s Soho Foundry , I never expected to see it in the flesh.

It’s on display at the ‘Thinktank’ science museum in Birmingham, UK.

According to W Steeds’ book - quoting the Birmingham museum authorities - the lathe was thought to have been built at the Soho Manufactory before 1850, and then moved to the new Soho Foundry.

It could swing 26 ft in the pit.






Five toolposts were available. Four had automatic feed operated by chains and ratchets, but the central one had its X and Y feeds powered via the vertical shaft seen above. This connected to a universal-jointed telescopic shaft which in turn was driven by bevel gears on a lineshaft . The lineshaft itself was driven by a belt from the main spindle.



I was surprised to find that part of the Foundry has survived, in the ownership of Avery (now owned by Weigh-tronix). Avery took the foundry over in 1895 and for a time continued to make large steam engines under the name James Watt & Co. Avery are well-known for their weighing scales and material testing machines. Their familiar logo can just be made out on this ID tag on the headstock:-

Inside the cone pulley.








Wooden teeth - tried and tested old time mill technology.

I was very fortunate, to see the old Birmingham Science Museum, in 1970, I have a feeling that over the past few years, when they formed "Thinktank" the consultants &other genius types b******d the collection up, I am led to believe much of that fascinating outfit has been decimated, by being scattered to the four winds,
When i last saw the big lathe, it looked used, now it is a weird unnatural grey colour, Has it A)been ill B) been shotblasted or C) been painted to cover rust or other damage through inapropriate storage ?
It certainly nowadays does not look as though her turner left her yesterday

As can be gathered i do not trust todays experts!

Mac,

I have mixed feelings. I never saw the old museum, but looking through Steeds’ and other books, I’m shocked at what’s gone - some of the most important historical machine tools, including Fox’s remarkably advanced planer and lathe.

I don’t have a problem with the matt grey colour of the lathe, but what were they thinking of painting over the bright surfaces? Perhaps they thought it was a steam hammer.

Having said that, the one floor devoted to machinery is very good indeed, although its size does not reflect the scale and variety of manufacturing that went on here.

I’ll be showing more stuff from the museum in other posts.

I'll have to agree with Mac. The lathe certainly looks out of place behind the tacky red ropes. The character of the building and surroundings is as important as the object itself, unless you simply want to only showcase the object's engineering.

The so called experts who design museums and exhibits usually know very little about how to properly exhibit a piece of industrial equipment. Thanks Asquith for posting examples of how not to exhibit industrial history. Keep them coming.

Oh, by the way I just want to say "wow", I am glad this lathe survives.

It’s easy to criticise, and to suggest better ways of presenting items. As it’s so easy, I’ll continue to do so . However, I’m grateful that Birmingham have used valuable display space to show some machine tools, bearing in mind that, in that practically no-one is interested in such things.

Even here, on the foremost forum for matters relating to old machine tools, there is relatively little discussion about anything that isn’t run-of-the mill. Many hundreds of photos of rare old machine tools get posted here, yet most of these rarely succeed in bringing forth any observations or discussions about their features or their manufacturers. I used to get disheartened about this, but no longer bother, taking the view that at least I’ve been able to temporarily bring to the surface some evidence of the skills and techniques of a lost era. One day all this virtual salvage will disappear into the ether, and all we can hope is that someone somewhere might have retained a hard copy of a picture of some forgotten old machine.

In the ideal world every industrial museum would have a booklet with more information about the machines, and about local manufacturers and their products, but who would produce it? Who would go through the hassle of trying to get permission to reproduce old pictures which have fallen into the grasping hands of the authorities who are the lucky recipients of freely-donated archives? And then perhaps to be told that there’s no shelf-space in the gift shop for something that would be a slow seller.

Just this past Monday I presented an array of industrial history items that will be sold in the gift shop of the Youngstown Historical Center of Industry and Labor. I want that gift shop to be full of merchandise related to industrial history. When OHS rant the place the gift shop was full of crap that had nothing to do with local history at all.

Asquith,

Those of us who read this forum owe you and others who post this type of information a great deal of gratitude. I for one always enjoy reading your posts, looking at the photos and reading the replies. It is amazing the amount of knowledge many of you have concerning historical machine tools and machinery. Most of us will never have the opportunity to travel and see some of the things you show.

It is sad to see some of the ways that this stuff is exhibited but I suppose the alternative is probably the junk yard. Most people I come in contact with don't really understand a fascination with old machinery. Oh, it's interesting to look at but it doesn't generate much excitement from the general public. A lot of museums have a lot of nice artifacts and photos but it is hard to imagine what the equipment was for or how it was used when it is seen out of its original setting. I admire Mr. Rowlands for his preservation efforts.

I think there is a partial solution for some of these problems. Why not create virtual displays? With computer graphics these days, displays could simulate the factories or shops that existed long ago. It would certainly be more interesting than walking past a big piece of machinery and not having a clue as to what it did. Maybe I'm too naive or maybe this is already being done but it seems like it would appeal to a lot of folks. One of my future goals is to produce some 3-D computer models of some old machine tools and machinery and try to put together a sort of digital diorama. Of course, it may never get done. Most of my projects never get past the thinking stage.

Once again, many thanks from someone who never saw a piece of old machinery that wasn't interesting.

Terry

Terry,

Many thanks.

I don’t know what makes people interested in one thing or another. I was always interested in mechanical things, never in nature. Just as well, growing up where I did. Then, I suppose certain things must have triggered off my interest in how things work. As a kid, I liked drawing trains. This led me to figure out how the brakes worked on wagons (freight cars). When I was about 11, I went to a school that had workshops. I suddenly wondered how shapes were formed, and got very interested.

Nowadays there aren’t so many things around that you can figure out the workings of.

These stimuli need to be available to excite young people’s interest. Even then, most people won’t be interested in how things work, let alone how they’re made. As far as I know, I haven’t passed my enthusiasm on to anyone else. For those youngsters who are receptive, I can only hope that the odd bit of stuff we offer here takes root and germinates.

Asquith, Rick &Terry,
Most gratifying to see the interest & discussion generated on the forum, via the illustrations of James Watts big lathe, From my own perspective, I have often wondered what sparked off my lifelong fascination with the mechanical arts, In my early days i was reared in an area part coalmining and agriculture, This has led me to i would guess an interest in two diametrically opposed interests, Nature and the great outdoors, and the locomotives and other mechanical items i observed from an early age (suppose i have a split personality!) Lots of various other factors come into play in the mind of a youngster, which i think in ones formative years mould either the way you develop in your interests. This also brings into focus the discussions by your elders, One old uncle and dad had many a discussion on mechanical or wireless matters which rubbed off, In those long gone days, what were my toys/ One was a rather nice little armature of a D.C. motor Many were the times even as a five year old, i wondered how did some men make it and how did it work ? I am certain since then, an interest in what makes mechanical things tick was generated.
Coming to the present day, We in the U.K. live in a country which by and large has been "Mechanically Cleansed" of mechanical and manufacturing plant.With the passing of these disciplines and industry, Within the last twenty years also, I have observed the passing of the ethos of a love of mechanical plant and making things We now buy everything from the Pacific rim or China, and even worse the kids no longer are educated along the lines of developing a great deal of manual dexterity, We no longer think we need such an instinct, Question will we ever start manufacturing anything ever again?
Couple this with the growth of souless tower blocks, Thankfully one of which, i think as i write, is a good distance from where i live, nicknamed "Heroin Heights" Because of about 10% of its inhabitents behaviour, Brave new world where interest is stifled
Lets get back to Jimmie Watts big lathe To the average youngster glancing at it, it is only a large dis-interesting lump of metal , Why has it not got a workpiece on the faceplate & and a tool set up working on the half finished casting or forging, And on occasion get a skilled man to explain how it works,tick it over, and what it meant to operate something of that magnitude-- Bring it to life & weave in the story of Watt and his genius Plus what he did for Birmingham
OOPS i forgot , Health and safety
My mind boggles thinking on how easily the consultants were allowed to decimate our technical history, Being paid an obscene amount of Mega - Bucks,

Asquith,
Another fascinating yet frustrating topic. A few words re. two once great institutions :

The Science Museum, London.

In the year 1851 The Great Exhibition was opened in Hyde Park on the initiative of His Royal Highness Prince Albert and two years later, largely as a result of a recommendation by the Commissioners of the Exhibition, there came into being a dpt. of Science and Art. The purpose of the new department which was attached to the Board of Trade, was to *increase the means of industrial education and extend the influence of Science & Art upon productive Industry*and its plans included *museums by which all classes might be induced to investigate those common principles of taste which may be traced in the works of excellence of all ages*.

The Henry Ford Museum, Dearborn.

* I am collecting the history of our people as written into things their hands made and used.... a piece of machinery or anything that is made is like a book, if you can read it *

Unless we have people who really understand and are committed to caring for industrial machinery even before they attempt to display or interpret it, the relentless slide backward in our technical/industrial museums will follow the trend of manufacturing industry in the Western world.

In my reading of practical machinest, I go to the Antique Machinery and History forum first, and then I search out any post by you Sir, You are becoming the new national treasure. maybe a step behind Ben Hill, but he was of a different sort and my favorite Comedian. You are doing what you can to at least preserve the knowledge of the old Machinery, and I thank you for that. When I read your posts, I am Learning.
I guess my life started changing when Propellor airplanes bowed out to jets and when I watched the last Steam Passenger train travel through my hometown on it's last scheduled trip, a sad day for me. The important things in my childhood life have become a history lesson. Why pray tell when people are interested in quality, they look to the past? we know the answer to that. Almost all that was good has been improved into uselessness. Think of any current failure in our world, and remember when it was a non problem because the old ways worked best. Keep the faith Sir and keep the posts coming! We all love them to one degree or another. Marsh !949.

Marsh,

Thanks very much.

Looking at W Steeds’ book (1969), there’s a photo of a wall-mounted planing machine, ex-Soho Foundry, made c.1830, on display at the original Birmingham Science Museum. Behind it there’s a leadscrew from this or a similar machine displayed in a glass case with some description painted on it. It strikes me that when this and other ex-Soho Foundry machines were displayed, Birmingham had many tens of thousands of people using machine tools on a daily basis, many of whom could identify with such exhibits. Now very few people in the area will have any involvement with machine tools, so it follows that hardly anyone will be interested. What’s important is that these historically important items should at least be preserved in good condition, and accessible for study by those who are interested.

I also want to thank you again for posting the many posts you do. It is so nice when someone who gets around can take the time to share and give us a preview of places to add to our own list of "places of interest to drop by someday". I try to do a little sometimes too.

But most important is that this information is just put out there for free with easy access..... at least to those of us on PM, I wonder what percentage of interested folks are here or lurking?.... my guess would just a few percent at best?.... it is a shame there are not more. Now the fun part is we can go off to these sites and take photos for our own amusement and also think how this or that will look on the PM site...... then we post it and sometimes wonder why did the conversation go off in that direction???????.... the original poster may have found one part interesting and the readers went after another part..... who knows?, who really cares? the important part is we all get to read about and see something new or add one little piece of information to what we already knew..... I have admired this lathe lathe in Steed's book..... now I get to see more of it!!! I am so glad about that. I am reading a article in Invention & Technology about the changes in the last 10 years of consumer electronics.... our cel phones, digital cameras, being able to send photos around the world as we do here........ all this makes me wonder.... in another few years will we be able some how as someone like Mr. Asquith is standing in front of Watt's lathe and he posts it in real time, to ask him... please show that mechanism a little to the left ?...... and all this would be of no extra effort to person enjoying looking at this machine????? it would be like we are all able to be in his eyes?????? Who knows what the future will bring..... when Steed put this lathe on the cover of his book he never thought we would sharing discussions and photos of it around the world........

I have been sorting and organizing my library....... it is so hard to figure out just how do you deal with information....... I have letters about machines and tools from Battison, Ogden, Crom, Vogel and others from back in the day...... so now we have piles more of photos from gentleman like Asquith....... does one print them out and add them into the files? which we should do because as he says... all this will be gone some day.......

We are just all so lucky to have all this information out there for us to absorb....... a BIG THANK YOU to all who contribute and read it.

Asquith,

As I have in the past , Thank you for your efforts and concern. I do appreciate it .....life gets in the way at times,

Dave

Asquith,

I just wanted to let you know I for one appreciate your posts. I don't post responses often because I am here to learn and don't have a lot to offer. This thread has 14 responses but almost 500 views so there are many more like me. Keep them coming.

Asquith,its unfortunate you never visited the museum in its old guise namely The Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry. I visited it several times back in the 1980s on occasions where on Newhall Street outside the museum was assembled traction & showmans engines & fairground organs. THis old lathe,the wall planer & wonderful old machine tools of diverse makes were there. Any old machine not actually made in Birmingham had spent its working life in the area;including a nice Whitworth and Cunliffe&Croom crank planer & large 1851Whitworth lathe. Also C1820 James Fox of Derby lathe & planing machine. Ive never been to Thinktank. Its terrible whats happening to British heritage, I do get the feeling that the situation is better in the US..... Us few enthusiasts here may be likened to Rockall; isolated crags in an ocean of crass and inexcusible ignorance! Ted

The good(ish) news is that stuff from the old museum (and more) is stored in a warehouse and can be visited on open days (twice a year ).

The next open day is 3rd May.

Birmingham Roundabout | Birmingham City Council Museum Collections Centre - Dollman Street

Exhibitions and Events - Birmingham Museums & Art Gallery

I've been reading some interesting comments in B'ham forums. The gist is that a superb free museum has been replaced by an expensive unpopular 'facility'.

It should be borne in mind, though, that some of the criticisms came from people who haven't been (discouraged by adverse reports). Setting aside how the museum has deteriorated, I have to emphasise that what is there is excellent.

Some forum comments (warning: regardless of where you live, don't read if you have blood pressure problems!):-

Birmingham Industrial Museum

http://forums.birminghammail.net/viewtopic.php?t=1912

Asquith,

I figure my chiming in on anything you post is something akin to my asking Angelina Jolie to sleep with me. Utterly pointless. But that doesn't mean I don't sit and stare and fantasize about what could be.

Not that I want to sleep with you.

Jim

Joking aside, very much appreciate your posts and contributions.

Hi Asquith
You mentioned the very large leadscrew in a glass case, with an inscription, in a photo.
And it was very large, about 3" in diameter as I remember and about 20 feet long
Years ago, I visited the museum in Birmingham, and saw the machine in question, and the glass case, and the inscription.
It said that the leadscrew in the case was the original patern in steel and hand chiselled.
As soon as it was completed, it was fitted to the machine and an identical one was cut.
This machined version was then fitted to the machine, and the hand made one was put in the glass case.
On the hand made one, you could actually see the individual final chisel marks.

David C