Boye & Emmes Apron

Uglydog · Jun 22, 2015

My B&E 16inch powerfeed quit feeding this weekend. Just slips. The take up adjustment is not enough to resolve the problem as the gears and bushing are so worn that they just pop off the the large bevel gear they drive.

Took her apart. As long as I have her apart.... Visual inspection show significant wear to many of the gears in the apron, as well as about 8inchs of rack and half of the gear teeth which fit the rack. Interestingly, the bed is worn in those same 8inches. Likely some of the wear is due to the integral internal auto-oiler being dismantled at some time in history. I've been trying to oil it manually (likely inadequate).

Anyway... I'll be making gears and conjuring up an oiler. This is an extreme longshot, but perhaps someone here knows of B&E apron which needs a headstock. I'm especially interested in an oiler as this one is completely missing parts of the oiler. Fortunately In addition to this print I've got a B&E 18x60 I can reference. Regardless, perhaps someone will find the attached print interesting.

Happy chips.

Daryl
MN

4GSR · Jun 22, 2015

Daryl,

I'm very surprised the apron has ball bearings in it! And you were able to get a assembly drawing that has all of the information on it as your shows. Reminds me how similar this is to the old Lehmann lathe aprons I've dealt with in my past. I had a older lathe years ago that had a wore out reverse pinion gear similar to yours. I was able to find the proper cutters to cut the teeth of the gear and made one from scratch. Bevel gear cutters of the involute type are hard to find. Maybe one of the guys on the forum can help you on getting gears made for your B & E lathe. Maybe on the gear rack, you could swap it end to end, so the un-worn section is put up in front of the headstock and the worn section put to the tailstock end of the bed. If you know what pitch the gear rack is and basic width and height, you might get lucky and find a new section out there. Martin Gear used to make gear racks to special sizes years back. Don't know if they still do that or not. Some of us out here may have something that may work for. Let us know your requirements and see what pops up. Ken

Uglydog · Jun 22, 2015

Swapping the rack end to end is definitely a reasonable answer. I'll need to map some holes drill and counterbore. But the worn teeth will be so close to the tailstock no one will likely use those teeth.

Looks like two gears need to be made. Note: pics.
As anticipated the Bijur is a larger issue. I've included a pic of the apron with the difficulty (gray paint) as well as the same part on my other B&E. Do you notice any difference? Ha! An earlier weld & braze repair of the apron also cut off the rest of the pump and the drive gear which automatically pumps it via an eccentric.

If it weren't for my desire to keep her as OEM as possible I could drill a hole in the front and install a rocking lever to toggle the Bijur.

Daryl
MN

4GSR · Jun 22, 2015

Daryl,

I've see a double beveled gear that was swapped end to end, to take advantage of the unworn gear....
On my L & S, it has a lever on the apron to jog the Bijur oil pump like your talking about doing.

kitno455 · Jun 22, 2015

Uglydog said:
Swapping the apron end to end...

I assume you mean rack?

allan

Uglydog · Jun 22, 2015

Yep, typo.
Definitely intended rack.
The post is edited.
Thank you.

Daryl
MN

Onepass · Jun 23, 2015

It's good to see another B&E out there! I've got an old Boye and Emmes in pieces in a barn that I drug home a few years ago. It's going to be a pretty big project! ( it's a 42" swing X about 8 foot between centers. I'll be curious to see any similarities between it and a smaller version.

Richard King · Jun 23, 2015

Daryl if you can't find parts call Tom at Twin City Gear Co
1551 99th Ln NE Blaine, MN 55449 (763) 780-9780. Tell him your a friend of Richard of Midwestern Tool & Equipment. You can work out a deal where you machine the blanks and all he does is cut the gears, he will help you with material and heat treating. You may want to call the local rebuilders and see if they have a used Bijur pump in their parts crib.

If not may have to take yours apart and rebuild it. Bijur probably has a new one but big bucks. If the pump has not been working the oil lines are probably full of crud. While you have it apart replace the Bijur metering units. There is a Bijur dealer here in the Twin Cities... call around as i can't remember their name. May as well cut and flake the saddle too while it's apart. make use of the scraping class you attended :-) Rich

Uglydog · Jun 23, 2015

Richard,
Thanks for the reply, your input is always highly regarded.
The Bijur works. However, it's gear driven, and the entire gear assembly has been amputated.
Either I build the assembly from scratch, or I build a replica from the microfiche blueprint, I create an external manual trigger, or I circumvent the existing pump and pipe in a new system.

I appreciate the lead for: Tom at Twin City Gear Co. 1551 99th Ln NE Blaine, MN 55449 (763) 780-9780
At your recommendation I've dealt with Gopher Gear with good results. But, will keep Twin City in mind!
As it stands I've got four gears to make. Two 10P bevels, and 2 spur gear 8P. And several bushing which have a visible 1/16inch play.
While I've been doing some gear cutting with NOOB results, the heat treating is important.
I am able to find a Rockwell scale of the microfiche type print, but I am unsure if I will be able to do the job well with my little toolmakers oven.

Decisions. Do it myself, possibly several times, or pay to have it done right?

Thank your Richard!
Daryl
MN

Richard King · Jun 23, 2015

Several machines used that cam that was assembled to the hand crank assembly. It should be pretty easy to make it. I will check in some of my lathe manuals in my collection and see if I can find a picture of another builders design.
Also you can buy the bushings from www.gobeilco.com who are near 280 and University in St. Paul. No need to re-invent the wheel unless your trying to make an exact duplicate. That can be big bucks to do if you can't find the parts. Rich

johnoder · Jun 23, 2015

If you tackle the bevels, chapter XV, page 267will show the way in the clearest way I have ever seen written

https://archive.org/details/treatiseonmillin00cincrich

When you have calculated WHAT # of cutter you need using the above info, I'll look thru my bevel cutter collection and see if I have it

Uglydog said:
As it stands I've got four gears to make. Two 10P bevels, and 2 spur gear 8P. And several bushing which have a visible 1/16inch play.
While I've been doing some gear cutting with NOOB results, the heat treating is important.
I am able to find a Rockwell scale of the microfiche type print, but I am unsure if I will be able to do the job well with my little toolmakers oven.

Decisions. Do it myself, possibly several times, or pay to have it done right?

Thank your Richard!
Daryl
MN

4GSR · Jun 23, 2015

Daryl,

Here is some information on the Bijur pumps they used to sell many years ago for what its worth. As Richard said, if you can find it, it is very expensive from the new owners of Bijur. They are very easy to rebuild. Filter kits are available on eBay or do what I did, make my own filters from felt.

Uglydog · Jun 24, 2015

Onepass said:
42" swing X about 8 foot between centers. I'll be curious to see any similarities between it and a smaller version.

That'd be fun! What kind of condition is she in? Are you planning to put her back to work? I've got quite a bit of literature on misc B&E if there is something you need... Note my copying is limited to cell phone pics.

Daryl
MN

Uglydog · Jun 24, 2015

4GSR said:
Daryl,

Here is some information on the Bijur pumps they used to sell many years ago for what its worth. As Richard said, if you can find it, it is very expensive from the new owners of Bijur. They are very easy to rebuild. Filter kits are available on eBay or do what I did, make my own filters from felt.

Helpful!
Thank you.

Daryl
MN

Onepass · Jun 24, 2015

Uglydog said:
That'd be fun! What kind of condition is she in? Are you planning to put her back to work? I've got quite a bit of literature on misc B&E if there is something you need... Note my copying is limited to cell phone pics.

Daryl
MN

Thank you very much for the offer! As far as the lathe that I have, it's a basket case. I got it for free as it had been knocked over on its face. That monster gear bulge on the headstock must have protected most of the controls that usually get broken or bent. The compound seems to have taken most of the force otherwise. It's cracked and the handle is bent up pretty bad.
I used to be self employed with my shop but now working a good paying job till I retire. That is when I'm going to try a complete rebuild. My biggest lathe now swings 24 ", so a 42" would be a nice addition!

Uglydog · Jun 24, 2015

Johnoder,
Thanks for the link.
I read it tonight!

Me interpretation of the quasi microfiche print is that I need:
2 bevel gears for the powerfeed that are 21tooth/10pitch, and I don't have any 10p involutes.
I also need a 13tooth 8pitch, and a 12tooth 8pitch gear. I don't have any 8p either. One is for the handfeed and the other for the pump.
Ideally, I hope to recreate the original. However, I doubt I will find a cache of B&E parts. Most likely I will make all the parts and assemble. I've got a friend in Pennsylvania with several large boxes of involutes he has never used and doesn't intend to ever use. He is checking to see what he has for sizes. Depending on what he finds I may call you on your offer. Thank you.

It appears that the start of the problem is that like the 42inch in a post above, this one was rolled as well. The apron was broken and brazed in several places near the pump. Likely why the pump is dissected.

Daryl
MN

johnoder · Jun 24, 2015

Basically, you read the info and apply it, to come up with a number of cutter that suits, and it needs to be not only involute, but a skinny BEVEL GEAR CUTTER - since the teeth are small tapering larger to 10 DP - in other words, the cutter HAS to pass thru a tooth space SMALLER than 10 DP - so the cutter is made THINNER (and marked BEVEL)

The "info" enables you to select the right NUMBER of cutter, which will/can be a DIFFERENT NUMBER from a cutter intended for a plain spur gear with such and such number of teeth

(Here is a #8 10 DP marked BEVEL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GEAR-CUTTER...273?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35e4a22909
)
And then when that is all done per the INFO, you still have to do a little FILING.

Uglydog said:
Johnoder,
Thanks for the link.
I read it tonight!

Me interpretation of the quasi microfiche print is that I need:
2 bevel gears for the powerfeed that are 21tooth/10pitch, and I don't have any 10p involutes.
I also need a 13tooth 8pitch, and a 12tooth 8pitch gear. I don't have any 8p either. One is for the handfeed and the other for the pump.
Ideally, I hope to recreate the original. However, I doubt I will find a cache of B&E parts. Most likely I will make all the parts and assemble. I've got a friend in Pennsylvania with several large boxes of involutes he has never used and doesn't intend to ever use. He is checking to see what he has for sizes. Depending on what he finds I may call you on your offer. Thank you.

It appears that the start of the problem is that like the 42inch in a post above, this one was rolled as well. The apron was broken and brazed in several places near the pump. Likely why the pump is dissected.

Daryl
MN

jdavi581 · Jun 25, 2015

John,
Thanks for the intreptation writeup-very understandable.
Joe

johnoder · Jun 25, 2015

jdavi581 said:
John,
Thanks for the intreptation writeup-very understandable.
Joe

You are certainly welcome.

Uglydog · Jun 29, 2015

I spoke with Tom at Twin City Gear, he says he doesn't do bevels. But, gave me a contact in Kansas City.
For giggles I checked the Boston Gear website. The 21T-10P bevel appears to be a custom set up.
Sounds increasingly expensive especially given the other shaft features.

I've been reading about cutting bevel gears.
Attached a pic of my print. The original is all one piece.
If I attempt this myself, I need to figure out set up.
Suggestions?
While the original is all one piece, does anyone see any problems with turning a new shaft and securing bevel gears with a key and set screw(s)?

Daryl
MN

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