Post By Bravo5
Post By Bravo5
Greaves Cincinnati Mill with toolmakers overarm (#2)
Got my mill home and snapped some pictures while still on the trailer. The mill shows a surprising low amount of wear. 2nd hand history is that this mill was in the maintenance department of a small manufacturer and that would seem to be consistent with the shop made drawbar wrench, which was marked "Repair Department".
Appears to be original paint except for vertical head, which has industrial orange spayed over the blue. I have not seen another blue mill, but there is only one layer of paint and one of primer on this machine and if someone painted it they did exceptional job on it--including taking it to the bare metal.
This will be the second Greaves thread started in the past few weeks, both machines have the toolmakers overarm but there are some differences. This mill has an universal table and double swivel overarm. The other machine has a plain table and single swivel overarm. Since information is lacking, as new Greaves owners we are hoping others will post what they have to begin documenting the models and options.
Last edited by Bravo5; 11-27-2009 at 08:21 PM.
Pix. General views of mill and vertical head
Pix. SN's on right front of table and both sides of overarm near the front
Rapids are foot pedal activated. picture also shows coolant pump. Machine has 3hp on vertical spindle and 5 hp on horizontal spindle. Overarm (3hp) motor is two speed. Both spindles are 50 nmtb. The pendant has controls for both motors with options for jog or run,hi-lo switch for overhead motor, run lights, a reverse switch, a switch for the coolant pump, and an emergency stop. Pendant can be repositioned to work anywhere around the machine. Included are pictures of the speed / feed charts for both the horizontal and vertical spindles.
Last edited by Bravo5; 11-28-2009 at 07:34 AM.
I noted very modest wear. Included are some pictures of ways that still show the original "frosting" very well. Pictures are taken in the typical "high wear" areas. The machine is tight and will clean up extremely nice. I think it is too nice to paint, so it will get solvent and scrotchbrite and go to work.
I've always wanted a mill with universal table--now I have one.
The mill was free. Well, nearly so. I got a bunch of tooling. 5 horizontal arbors, a box of arbor spacers, tooling including some very nice valenite carbide insert mills, a 5" boring head, a 12 inch rotary table, two sets of putnam quick change tooling and one set of beaver quick change tooling. I got the arbor support but didn't take a picture. I like buying tooling and getting the a mill like this thrown in.
She will be have a DRO fitted ASAP giving me a mate to the Cincinnati 2ML.
Machine scales without arbor support, arbors or vice at 4970 lbs.
other specifications I can determine:
12" x 60" table with 5 t-slots
feeds on all three axes with rapid traverse
nearly 20" of travel in z to centerline of horizontal arbor or to vertical head.
From what I can gather looking at some sales literature. that Greaves head was an option available on many different model Cinci Mills. I maybe wrong, but my take is you all have Cinci 2M, or 2L, or Number/letter model mill with the Greaves option. the swivel table (universal)is another option. The variations are almost endless. Dial speeds or lever speed shifting. High power, hydro power, etc,etc,..
I think it is just pot luck which combo of options/models are reported by member of this forum. There is also a dedicated Cinci forum on the PM (besides antique), so there is yet another pool of potential PM owned machines. But, I think you are kind of spinning your wheels if you expect to record some definitive number of variation on the cinci mill with or without a Greeves head. I maybe all wrong, but thats my take on it.
I really do like that head.
My personal experience on all those neat adjustments, like swivel/universal table or angling the head are just a source of error in doing the work. I never once needed the table twisted off center or the head off dead nuts 90 degree. I have a vertical head attachment, not a Greaves. And the slightest errors in table or head, will mess up your work big time. It is like putting the tail stock off center on the lathe. I never do it, I just my machines straight and squared. Then, I leave it alone for all eternity. Thats been my limited experience. FWIW.
Thanks Peter. I have a Cincinatti vertical head that I use on my 2ML and I don't tilt it very often either.
I have a helical setup that might be done more efficiently in the horizontal with the universal table. I guess I'll soon know.
The Greaves is missing a few things I am accustomed to on the cincinatti. I don't see a provision to use a universal dividing head and I don't see an antibacklash adjustment. Interesting your comment about this being a Cincinnati with a Greaves head. It is unlike my Cincinnati 2ml in anyway. My assumption was that Greaves is a different company and they made he entire mill and that it has nothing to do with Cincinnati Milling Machine Company other than being made in the same city.
Lastly, I debated about where to put this thread---here in antiques or in the "modern" stuff. I simply followed the lead since there was a similar machine here. A moderator is welcome to move the thread if they wish.
Last edited by Bravo5; 11-27-2009 at 10:57 PM.
I think this is a good spot for the thread, I was thinking there might be other cinci owners hangin out on the other forum. On the greaves question, I am far from a cinci exert which is why I left myself some weasel room in all my remarks. I have one. Its an old round ram.
I found a flyer showing the Greaves as an option on the 2MH mill. FWIW. Now is there such a thing as a Greaves Mill? I assume yours was a Cinci, but you know what they say about 'asume'.
Last edited by peter; 11-28-2009 at 07:20 AM.
Peter, please post a scan of the Cincinnati Milling sales literature showing the optional Greaves head.
Good question Mister Mike! I got that all wrong. The Cinci attachment is different. Here is a scan.
I went back and found a file folder on Greaves, mills and attachments. The toolmaker overarm was apparently sold with the machine and they also offered a different attachment that bolted to the front of the mill. Like svs has. I scanned a couple pages. The origional is a photo copy so the scan is so-so. I have a big fold out flyer, but not easy to scan. They also sold a Mill that looks like any other mill, no head special vertical head.
It looks like that 90 degree section could be removed and lost? Might explain the two over arm styles. Or might attachment head from scan 4, fit on overarm scan 2?
Seperate company, I found an envelope return address
Dated March 19, 1954
J.A. Fay and Egan Co
Greaves Machine Tool Division
Cincinnati 2, Ohio
Thanks Peter. From the brochure now I know what else I need. The quill attachment. SVS commented about 2mt in the vertical spindle--and that it would be if the quill attachment was installed. Probably a snow balls chance in h**l of ever finding this attachment, but if I could get a look at some pictures of one (uninstalled) I believe I could duplicate it.
There is no other repository of information on the web on the Greaves Mills. I hope others will continue to post what they have and we'll collect it all for future Greaves owners.
As posted elsewhere, here is the U.S. Army Manual for the Greaves mills.
Anyone else have a copy of the U.S. Army Manual for the Greaves mill? The link Bravo5 left appears dead.
Double thanks for that.
Originally Posted by chancwj
First, with the dearth of info on my USMT "Quartet" of comparable combo-mill structure. THIS manual may give me some support as to guessing at lubricants & such.
Secondly, as there had existed a DA manual for the Cinncy/Greaves, a deep-dive into DA, DN, DoD or USGPO may find a MIL manual for MY mill as well, as some were definitely bought for USN use. Bit more research added to my 'To Do' list now...
The footpedal will rapid the table in the opposite direction as the feed direction. I liked that feature.
Originally Posted by Bravo5