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Thread: index milling machine

  1. #1
    rodman 69 is offline Plastic
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    Default index milling machine

    just bought a small index mill .it has a brown&sharp taper chuck that uses the small double taper collets. does anybody know if there is a brown&sharp to a er or more common collet. or can i cut down r8 or some other taper to fit it.

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    Curious Yellow's Avatar
    Curious Yellow is offline Aluminum
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    Do you mean a 'Wells Index' mill?

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    Ohio Mike is offline Stainless
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    If the machine is B&S #9 then tooling isn't that hard to find, but I'm not aware of anyone that has an ER collet chuck with #9 shank. That doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm just not aware of any.

    Note that Wells Index is still in business, and they can regrind many B&S #9 spindles to the more common R8 taper. Its worth considering before you start investing in tooling.
    Wells-Index Milling Machines store on eBay!

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    cjtoombs is offline Aluminum
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    Contact Wells-Index. They can supply you with some parts and a manual. I have an Index Super 55 and had them regrind it to R8 for me. It's been a few years, but the price then was in the 200-250 range, I don't remember exactly. They were very helpful.

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    rodman 69 is offline Plastic
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    yes i did mean wells index.also i cant find the model # i have seen some on ebay that are listed as sls143 .is this right or not?it is 110 with drive shaft power feed and a 30 inch table.

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    SteveM is offline Titanium
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    Go with the regrind. You can get chicom end mill holders and collets, but that's about it.

    With R8, you can get all sorts of stuff with integral R8 shanks, and some of it cheap on ebay.

    As an aside, I was at a flea market and picked up three B&S 9 adapters - to MT2, MT3 and B&S7. What the heck were the odds of finding those?

    Steve

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    I have a 1964 Model 645 with a #9 B&S and have had no problem finding tooling. They make new collets and end mill holders up to 1". I have picked up tooling here and there and am to the point where I don't feel that I need any more #9 tooling. I thought about a regrind when I first purchased the mill but never followed through. Glad I didn't. The regrind would have cost more than what I have in all the #9 tooling. Plus the hastle of tearing down the machine, shipping and the expense of the R8 stuff. If you keep your eyes open you can find it. I traded a center rest from a 14" lathe that didn't fit any of my machines for that entire second drawer plus some others not pictured.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 0313121945.jpg   0313121946.jpg   index7.1.jpg  

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    I'm with Billy Goat, I stuck with the B & S # 9. Most of the time a I use a Universal Engineering Z collet chuck with a B & S #9 shank, good for just over 3/4", (I have a 25/32", tight but doable as 20m @ 19.84375mm, about 0.006" under.) There is a version with ZZ collets that go to 1 inch.

    I also have a fair array of #9 end mill holders and some mounted cutters, seldom use them though. I have a 14N Jacobs 1/2 chuck on a 1/2" shank, that I chuck in a 1/2" Z collet. I prefer to use the collet chuck with nut at the quill nose, rather than constant banging on the draw rod above.

    At "110V and 30" table" I'll guess 40H Index, no "Wells", (before it was bought out by Wells). That's what mine is, though it was 3Ph.

    Bob

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    smdubovsky is offline Hot Rolled
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    Interesting tool in the lower left of the first pic

    But I don't see any face mill holders. Or arbor shanks for holding gear cutters. How do you hold metric tooling (I use a R8-ER32 chuck)? Can you get B&S to all different J tapers, like J33 and J6 for nice ball-bearing Jacobs or Albrecht chucks?

    So, another vote w/ go to R8 right off the bat. Tooling is dirt cheap and super common.

    I too have a WI, welcome to the club. It has a KS200 spindle. Almost wish it had R8 like my other 2 mills (or at least CAT40).

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    Quote Originally Posted by smdubovsky View Post
    Interesting tool in the lower left of the first pic

    But I don't see any face mill holders. Or arbor shanks for holding gear cutters. How do you hold metric tooling (I use a R8-ER32 chuck)? Can you get B&S to all different J tapers, like J33 and J6 for nice ball-bearing Jacobs or Albrecht chucks? )).
    That tool in the lower left is a 9 also, 9mm that is.

    The face and shell mills are in another drawer. They fit onto a 1" shank that goes into a 1" end mill holder. I don't use them very much. Same with all my gear cutters. My horizontal mill has #9 also, so everything can be used on it too. I don't fool with metric. I have 3/4" & 1/2" Jacobs chucks with #2 MT that fit into a #9 adapter and a 1/2" Jacobs chuck with a 3/4" straight shank that fits into a #9 3/4" collet. I've got it covered.

    I guess it all depends on what you use your mill for. Mine is just a home shop. No production work. I think I am pretty well tooled for what I do.

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    doc
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    there are several sizes of acorn collets Y , Z,ZZ ...ZZ goes up to one in,,,,,, few years ago ebay sellers had them for $5-10 ea....3/16 , 3/8. 1/2 .5/8 . 3/4 handles most endmills for Z chuck...as others posted , tooling can be on a straight 3/4 or 1/2bar & used in the acorn collets .........i am running B&S 9 & 7 tooling in two mills, & have few regrets ...the acorn collet chucks made life mush easier..you can use split sleeves in the collets for oddball sizes as needed...
    best wishes
    doc


    FWIW . i finished out my set of B&S 9 collets w/ a few from HHip at circa $10 ea. ,,,they equalled the original B&S #9 that i had in t.i.r. maybe just lucky !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billygoat View Post
    That tool in the lower left is a 9 also, 9mm that is.
    Kinda hard getting that adapter in the spindle...

    Or is that a persuasion too to get the stubborned one loose!

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    rodman 69 is offline Plastic
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    i called index today she told me were to find the model it is a 40 h. as for the tool holder i think i will look arond and see whats out there.i must have the smaller universal chuck 1/2 is the bigest it will hold and i only have three collets for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodman 69 View Post
    i called index today she told me were to find the model it is a 40 h. as for the tool holder i think i will look arond and see whats out there.i must have the smaller universal chuck 1/2 is the bigest it will hold and i only have three collets for it.
    A little late on this but that Universal Engineering collet chuck max'd out @ 1/2" will be a "Y".

    "Z", like mine is a nominal 3/4" but I have a factory 25/32 or 0.78125", 0.03125" over 3/4".

    With your "Y" going through 1/2", I'd jump the "Z" and go right to the "ZZ" that goes up to 1", if you can find it.

    A good substitute for the Universal Engineering "Z", would be a #9 B&S to ER40, max 3/4" also. A modern and very available collet.

    Ooops, mostly said all that above, a year ago.

    Bob

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    ahall is offline Stainless
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    As the owner of a Gorton with a 9 B&S taper I am sure glad that Index used the same taper and that some tooling is available.

    Having used both collet systems over the years for hobby work I think I can weigh in on this one.

    Both system will handle roughly the same size tooling and have about the same rigiditiy.

    The 9 B&S is roughly the same size as the R8.
    Finding collets and end mill holders is relitively easy, but you will find most are import grade or used ones.
    Finding drill chuck adaptors, Morse taper adapters, boring heads shanks and carbide insert facing tools is a bit more chalenging, and the second hand market is about the best bet.
    The availability of tooling is likely to get worse, not better.
    9 B&S is also a self locking taper, much like the morse taper. The drawbar should be configured to push the collet out as well as pull it in.

    R8 is by far the most common size collet used in manual knee mills and mill/drills.
    The 40 NMTB taper and its variants are much more popular in the NC markets.
    The gripping power is limited by its collet angle, but still comprable to the 9 B&S
    It is self releasing and usualy takes little more than a tap to get it to pop loose.
    You can find about any cutter holder you want in a wide range of qualities from most tool suppliers, and for reasonable prices.


    If you can buy the tooling you want in 9 B&S for a reasonable price, it works well.
    If you have to have every widget and gismo that will go in a spindle, R8 is the popular system today.
    If you cant afford down time looking for odd tooling, or frequently need special tool holders, convert to R8.


    I considered regrinding my machine, but once I found a basic set of colllets, there was no point.
    Most R8 mounted tools are also available in 3/4 strait shank and can be run in a collet.
    Yes, my carbide insert tooling is very limited.
    The ability to go to drill chucks and MT holders was a chalenge that I had to slove on the use tool market.
    If anyone is aware of a source of 9B&S to jacobs tapers, I would like to know.

    The other nice thing about 9 B&S is that it is just a taper shank with a taped hole. Far fewer critical features than most collets. If you have a taper attachement on your lathe and the ability to set it up accurately, you can make end mill holders and other basic tooling rather easily. I turn the taper on the lathe and rough bore the hole, then mount the holder on the mill and finish bore with a booring bar in the mill vise. Comes up concentric every time and the DRO makes fine tuning the size a snap.

    From a resale standpoint, R8 is always a +.
    Odd tapers force the machines into the home shop market where wallets are thin.
    The reason I picked up a machine with a 9 B&S taper was that it cost 15% the price of a comprable machine with an R8 taper.
    The savings made it worth the effort to hunt tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahall View Post

    Both system will handle roughly the same size tooling and have about the same rigiditiy.

    R8 is by far the most common size collet used in manual knee mills and mill/drills.
    The 40 NMTB taper and its variants are much more popular in the NC markets.
    The gripping power is limited by its collet angle, but still comprable to the 9 B&S
    (Pretty sure your comparison is not to the 40 taper)
    It is self releasing and usualy takes little more than a tap to get it to pop loose.
    You can find about any cutter holder you want in a wide range of qualities from most tool suppliers, and for reasonable prices.
    Not singling you out Ahall but rather quoting you on a subject that we've all seen repeated several times.

    The length of the taper on R8 is 1", on B&S #9, the taper is over 3.6" long. The R8 taper portion is split for it's entire 1" length, while the B&S #9 collet, (sorry about grabing an end mill holder for the pic, instead of a collet) is split for about 3" of it's taper.

    The R8 split continues on into the cylindrical portion, allowing the entire taper's 1" to clamp solidly, while the bottom of the splits of the B&S #9 cannot draw in, because they are held full, by the remaining solid portion. I will arbitrarally assign full gripping power to 2-1/2" of the B&S #9, the remainder bending, (slightly) to the solid portion.

    That means to me that the B&S #9 has the potential to grip 2-1/2 times as securely as the R8's potential, while providing better hold against side thrust, the R8's cylindrical portion is a loose slip-fit.

    The degree of taper having no effect on grip, only that the R8 is essentially non-self locking.

    DISCLAIMER: I have not chucked, say a long 1/2" sholder bolt in each taper, locked the spindles and tightened the draw bars to the same value with a torque wrench, then found the torque reading that each bolt would spin in their respective collets but.......

    With 2-1/2 times the length of effective slotted taper on the B&S #9 and with the R8 incapable of gripping with it's majority straight cylindrical length and taper limited to 1", I've no doubt which would grip better, by a considerable margin.

    I read, "collets ain't 'sposed to hold cutting tools, theys made to hold parts. Tools slips in collets." This has always been attributed to R8 and 5C to my recollection, never to B&S #9. For sure, I've never spun an endmill in B&S #9 but I have in R8.

    Some of you guys with nothing better to do than ask, "anybody got plans for some kind of machining project?" want to take this on? You know, kind of a public service....... become a Guru! But wait, if you're an R8 fan, you've got to swear you didn't oil the B&S #9 collet....

    Bob
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails r8-compared-b-s-9.jpg  

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    ahall is offline Stainless
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    Bob,
    Your correct, I was refering to the differences between the R8 and 9B&S, then threw in the comment about the 40 on an edit an got things mixed up a bit.

    With equal preload on the draw bar and equivelant friction on spindle noses, I suspect the 9 B&S will hold better than an R8

    But, that test does not reflect how most of us use the two systems.
    9 B&S was designed as a self locking tang type tool shank as well as a draw bar type holder.
    It was never intended to be pulled as tightly as an R8 is pulled.

    Anyone who over tighten the 9 B&S knows its a pain to get to eject, so I dont tend to wrench them down as tight as an R8.

    Given that basic operating principal, the debates about which grips better are a bit academic.

    Both work fine and are capable of the same class of work.
    How tightly they grip depends on who tightens the drawbar.
    No need to split the hair any finer than that.

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