Thread: Most Significant Lathe of 20th Century

I'm fishing for your thoughts on which lathe would be considered the most significant lathe produced before computerized machines that are now taking over manufacturing. Since I am merely a home shop machinist, I would also encourage you to list smaller machines that made it possible for the average machinist to enter the trade in his own shop.

I know there is much love for the South Bend, but what other lathes made it into machinist's garages, and why is this significant?

Thank you for your time with this gentleman. I have few ideas of my own, but would like to hear what the more experienced members think.

That would be At!as.

I don't think any 20th Century lathe is heads and shoulders above any other 20th Century lathe.

I am aware of the Monarch 10ee mystique, it's accuracy, etc, and perhaps the 10ee was essential to the Manhattan Project.

By the dawn of the 20th Century, quick-change gearboxes were available, reversing leadscrews were available, etc.

Precision and repeatability might be the factor determining a significant lathe. And productivity, also.

Perhaps tracer lathes?

The first lathes to take advantage of carbide tooling?

There were guys cobbling up lathes to turn down captured German artillery shells in North Africa, to shoot them at the Germans.

Most significant in my mind would be a Warner & Swasey turret lathe... the AC or A series.

Mike

Jones & Lamson turret lathe, designed by James Hartness.

I surmise Mister Honey and S_W_Bausch are thinking in terms of significance to mass production of interchangeable parts, which is probably the correct path to assigning overall significance. My two cents is that the J&L [Jones & Lamson] led the way to the W&S. Note that I have no credentials whatsoever as a machine tool historian......)

Added on Edit:

The "significance" is almost certainly the amount of impact the machine had on society. The question might be rephrased as "What lathe had the most impact on mass production?"

Other nominees besides the W&S and the J&L might be Fay, Bullard, Gisholt, and Giddings and Lewis. In other words, the NON-numeric "automatic" lathes that fed from a bar feeder or a magazine. (Non-numeric because the OP did restrict the question to non-computerized machines.)

Or, maybe the answer is the Brown & Sharpe screw machine, although I'm not sure that did not have roots in the 19th century,

Originally Posted by etard

I'm fishing for your thoughts on which lathe would be considered the most significant lathe produced before computerized machines that are now taking over manufacturing. Since I am merely a home shop machinist, I would also encourage you to list smaller machines that made it possible for the average machinist to enter the trade in his own shop.

I know there is much love for the South Bend, but what other lathes made it into machinist's garages, and why is this significant?

Thank you for your time with this gentleman. I have few ideas of my own, but would like to hear what the more experienced members think.

'Impossible question' to answer... It was a longer than average 'century' as changes go.

The 'average machinist' didn't WANT a lathe in his garage. All too tired of looking at one on a long shift. He wanted a motor car in that space, and for much of the 20th century couldn't afford a garage, let alone a car to put in it.

The wannabee-someday machinist wanted anything decent - so long as it was affordable. Read 'used'. That hasn't changed.

The 10EE, Axelson T&G, et al, were perhaps less 'significant' than the very, very few rare beasts that turned prop shafts for battleships and aircraft carriers.

WWII would have had exactly the same outcome without the atom bomb, just delayed.

Absent dominance of warships, OTOH, it could have been a very different story, and the 'Cold War' the same again. Heavily influenced by aircraft carriers, and they haven't departed the scene yet.

Those lathes are very much 'critical path' choke-points.

Bill

Wasn't a lathe, it was a class of them. More or less founded by Hendey, but the idea greatly improved over the long years.

Tool room lathe with reversible lead screw at apron - made short neat work of all the millions of onesie - twosie parts that needed threads. With out them R&D would have been a drag waiting for the chucks to back up like the old days.

This does not short change "other" lathes with threading dials, but if you have ever observed a Hendey making threads with the carriage hand wheel sitting still (and the carriage going back and forth) , you will get an idea of what a quantum leap ahead of the threading dial class of machine these creatures were.

I'm with most of these guys. Your question is impossible to answer in a sensible way. Ask about a narrower category.

Most significant lathe for mass production of parts you can hold in the palm of your hand.
Most significant lathe for mass production of parts you can't lift with both hands.
Most significant lathe for precision toolmaking.
Most significant lathe for production of unique, critical items (like atomic bombs, or 16" naval guns).

Great discussion guys, lets open the field to pre-20th century lathes. Which of these made the most significant advances over those previously designed? Feel free to post a pic or two for some eye candy.

Thanks

The Turret lathe won the war. You could put an unskilled person on that machine and in a few hours they could be making parts. I put a friend of mine on my #3 W&S and he was making good parts in a few hours. They are the poor mans cnc I use the hell out of mine. I love how easy it is to run and how you can change speeds under power, they just straight up kick ass.

ok, note to self:

Never buy a lathe with a turret tailstock, most likely has had the living snot run out of it.

Originally Posted by sfriedberg

I'm with most of these guys. Your question is impossible to answer in a sensible way. Ask about a narrower category.

.. and if budding Machinist in a basement/garage shop really IS the criteria, then 'Atlas' was far the better answer than South Bend.

The reason has little to do with their numbers or 'presence' - high in both cases.

It has to do with the fact that a South Bend owner can be comfortable with it for a lifetime, and not have to make excuses for owning one.

The Atlas owner, OTOH, is absolutely DRIVEN to find something better, and as soon as possible.
Complacency is not an option.

Bit of a motivator, that... may even divert one to running the factory instead of the lathe.

Bill

Originally Posted by etard

ok, note to self:

Never buy a lathe with a turret tailstock, most likely has had the living snot run out of it.

Not to worry. The W&S, J&L, Gisholts, British Ward 'capstan' lathes and the like all had brute-force construction, automatic lube and large reservoirs of 'living snot'. Covered bed ways, even.

SB's with add-on TS turret need not apply...

Good thread on PM covering the rebuild of a Ward.

Bill

I agree with the nomination of turret lathe or screw machine, if "significance" is relative to Society in general, because the greatest changes in the XX century had to do with the consequences of mass production multiplying the wealth of the world and increasing the productivity of the individual.

If significance is relative to design of machinery, then possibly I'd suggest something with hydrostatic bearings, or Leblond's replaceable ground bedways.

Originally Posted by magneticanomaly

If significance is relative to design of machinery, then possibly I'd suggest something with hydrostatic bearings, or Leblond's replaceable ground bedways.

Neither, however, had near the impact expected. Few of the replaceable ways (used by several major makers) actually WERE replaced, as an enterprise that ran a machine hard enough to need such, had usually earned enough to replace the entire machine with a newer and more productive one. Second and subsequent owners might turn 'em 180 degrees else JF live with the wear, as their budgets were tighter.

As to bearings in general, various types of sleeve or roller bearings coexisted through the 20th century and beyond without being the 'final' determinant as to lathes. Their greater influence was elsewhere, so escapes the OP's challenge.

Bill

Most Significant Lathe of 20th Century?

mine of coarse

Originally Posted by etard

... which lathe would be considered the most significant lathe produced before computerized machines ...

The date in your thread title and the theme of your opening question are incongruent.

Most developements happen earlier than you'd think. My vote goes to the sliding head cam driven automatic.

That's an interesting machine, I can't find the lathe in it though! Why was this significant?

I guess a few of you would agree that the biggest improvements to the lathe as we know it were made before the 20th century?

I am avoiding defining MY interpretation of "significant" and am rather enjoying the various directions YOUR interpretation of the word takes us.

My vote is for the 9" South Bend lathes. My reasons for this are:

-the 9" lathe was probably the most widely used lathe in school shops and training programs. Countless people got their first exposure to lathe operation on a 9" South bend lathe. Those countless people went on to become the machinists, toolmakers, and engineers who designed and built everything and anything, including the turret lathes and lathes capable of turning a 16" gun barrel or parts for tooling to make the planes, tanks, reasearch instrumentation, medical equipment, locomotives, and anything you touch in your everyday life.

-the 9" South Bend lathe found its way to some unlikely locations, and was found aboard ships, on polar expeditions, as well as in countless small experimental machine shops and labs.

-the 9" South Bend lathe was probably made in numbers greater than many other of the significant lathes combined. As such, it had to have affected the lives, careers and outcome of society to a larger extent than the more "developed" lathes. Agreed that a turret lathe can crank out the work, but the machinist or toolmaker who sets up the turret lathe has to have learned his trade from the basics. Or, some piece of tooling for the turret lathe is needed like a stop or bushing, and that is where the smaller lathe comes into play. Maybe it's a toolroom lathe like a Hendey or a 10EE Monarch, or maybe it is a humble Southbend 9" lathe.

-the Southbend 9" lathe was cloned or copied by a number of machine tool builders on several continents. They say imitation is the sincerest form of praise, and seeing the clones of the Southbend 9" lathe bears that out.

The 9" South Bend lathe represents the most basic lathe imaginable. It is a forgiving, user friendly little lathe. It is the lathe which taught so many people, and could be regarded as the "maker or breaker" of those people's career path. Think of it: a young person takes a basic entry level machine shop class in HS, and gets taught to make a few simple parts on the SB lathe. That person might "take to machine work" or might decide this was not something they had any interest or knack for.

The 9" South Bend lathe found its way into garages and home shops and was used far harder than I think SB Lathe ever imagined. People took contracts during WWII to deliver parts or perform some machining operation on parts as a sub contractor. Often, they were working in a garage behind their house with a South Bend 9" lathe and some simple production tooling. I think if a person were to research the machine tools on hand at Los Alamos or the Manhattan Project or Oak Ridge during WWII, they'd find a few 9" South Bend lathes.

By sheer numbers made and used and user-friendliness, my vote goes to the Southbend 9" lathe. Would I own one- NO. Would I expect one to do toolroom or production work ? It would be a stretch to think of a 9" Southbend lathe in those uses. Was it a lathe that met many needs at all levels ? Yes. I think the word "ubiquitous" might sum up the Southbend 9" lathe.

Originally Posted by etard

That's an interesting machine, I can't find the lathe in it though!

Here is the (sliding) Headstock and chuck:



rearview of same:



Here are views of the toolholders, tailstock and their activating mechanisms:

Why was this significant?

I'm going to go out on a long limb and claim that since its invention most parts that have been made on the lathe were made on the swiss automatic type.

I guess a few of you would agree that the biggest improvements to the lathe as we know it were made before the 20th century?

I am avoiding defining MY interpretation of "significant" and am rather enjoying the various directions YOUR interpretation of the word takes us.