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Old Lufkin Tools (was: Determining Difficult Thread Pitches)

RedlineMan

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 29, 2012
Location
Vestal NY
Howdy;

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong place. To me it is an "antique tool" from a bygone company, you fellow old tool users know more than anybody else around, and I'm comfortable here! :D

I recently purchased this very nice set for no other reason than I like Lufkin tools (I have a minor collection of them), and these multi-anvil mics in general. It is a really clean set even without any sprucing done yet. Problem is that, unbeknownst to the seller or myself, I find the retaining nut for the replaceable anvils is missing. He was rather aghast that he had missed that, and offered to help in any way he could, looking for another set or someplace to rob one to send me, or even taking it back. Nice, but not immediate.

My first question is, how does one go about accurately determining these tiny TPIs? The major OD of the anvil shank is .2251, the major OD of the threaded portion is .2154, and as near as I can tell, it measures 50TPI. All measured using vintage Lufkin tools, appropriately. I must say it is VERY difficult to judge these super fine pitches with a thread gage, even under 20-30x magnification. I'm not all that confident I saw it right!

Second, where would one find such a nut, if one existed, or a thread tap to make one? Would anyone happen to have an extra, or have a similar set from which to measure one for verification?

Again I apologize if this is in the wrong place. Thanks for any and all help.
 

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Damn;

I should have titled it something like "Old Lufkin Tools" Why do you get so smart only after you hit the send key?
 
The best way I know would be to use an optical comparator. Count the number of full threads and get an accurate measure of the length. I don't have one, so I make do with a stereo microscope with LED ring light and a collection of inch and metric pitch gauges.

The closest match I could find in my table is a number 18 watch pendant thread: Dia. .2323 x 50 tpi, core dia. .2079, depth of thread .0122. It would be too loose, even if a rare tap like that could be found.

So single pointing it is the only way I would be able to make a replacement. Buying a special tap would be possible if you have a spec and lots of money.

Larry
 
Redline:

A lot of tool and instrument makers used "proprietary" threads. At Brooklyn Tech HS, I remember us kids being told by about this by machine shop teachers and mechanical drawing/machine design teachers. Some referred to these threads as "bastard threads", which got us kids to laughing, hearing teachers use a word which would have landed any of us on the carpet.

To answer your first question, as to determining the pitch/thread form of very fine threads, a manufacturer would have sets of hardened, ground and adjustable female thread gauges (similar to how a die closes down to cut a tighter thread), and hardened and ground male thread gauges to set the female gauges to. To inspect and check form and pitch, an optical comparator would be used. This is an instrument which uses a strong "collimated" light source to throw a beam of light around the object being inspected. The shadow cast by the object is then magnified using lenses with a long focal length, and the overall size of the comparator is kept within reasonable size by the use of internal mirrors. The enlarged shadow is projected onto a ground glass screen. The result is a black, crisp "silhouette" of the part being inspected, greatly enlarged. The part being inspected can be mounted on a "stage" with micrometer adjustments for position. The ground glass screen often has "hairlines" to set up coordinate axis. The part being inspected, set on the stage, can be positioned with the micrometers. A draftsman would make a greatly enlarged template of the portion of the part being inspected, drawing it on clear film with India Ink. This would be secured to the ground glass screen of the comparator and lined up with the "hairlines". The part being inspected would be moved with the micrometers on the stage until it just lined up with the template on the glass screen. By using the micrometers, the amount the part deviated from the design geometry could be determined. The magnification in a comparator is on the order of a toolmaker's microscope. The comparators had the screen at a convenient height, and had a black cloth hood like an oldtime studio photographer's camera. This let the person doing the inspection see the screen sharply with no reflection or wash-out from light in the room.

I am telling you methods that are probably outdated. I imagine nowadays, it is some sort of close circuit video camera with electronic magnification that is used to pick up the image of the part being inspected, and possibly this is projected onto a flat screen monitor, superimposed on a CAD image of the thread. My dentist, an oldtimer and man with a lot of respect for the machine trades (his father was a mechanic on the NYC subways in the car shops) and for engineering, has some interesting discussions with me about similarities in our professions. He has a micro camera he puts into my mouth and a flat screen monitor on the wall. He shows me in clear detail what he has found and what work needs to be done, and shows me the work as it progresses (I have good teeth, so little to show in the way of dental work, but we both like to play a bit). I had some arthritis in my left wrist that was really a problem, so saw the local orthopedic/hand surgeon. He shot it up with cortisone. He had a digital X Ray with a flat screen monitor. I watched him poke the needle into my wrist joint with a nice sharp image and considerable enlargement. I saw this same doc a couple of years later for another hit of cortisone in the same joint. As he pulled my chart, I saw a sketch I had drawn him two years earlier. He had broken a bolt off in a tapped hole on his tractor. I had drawn him the step-by-step of how to remove a broken bolt, with a perspective sketch of an "easy out". The doc and dentist and I get on famously, with a mutual respect. The result is I can see where something like an oldtime optical comparator is probably obsolete in modern industry. 40 + years ago, the optical comparators (sometimes called "shadowgraphs") were in common use.

A firm like Lufkin would have had a complete toolroom, fully equipped to make their own taps and specialty cutting tools. Or, a firm like Lufkin would have gone to a manufacturer of taps and dies and ordered "specials", taps and dies made to their non-standard or "bastard" threads.

Where you find a tap like it is a hard question. The first thing I would suggest, if you have a lathe that can cut a thread of 50 tpi, and handle small, fine work, is to try making a "dummy" male gauge. I'd get a piece of mild steel, turn it to the OD of the extension anvil's threads, and try cutting a 50 tpi thread. Do the shop math for half depth, use a well stoned tool, and inspect the tool against a center gauge carefully to verify correct thread form. I have a toolmaker's microscope, nothing fancy, no stage on it, but I put things like threading tools on a white paper, aim a fluorescent drafting table lamp down at the paper to get good light, and check with the thread gauge. My eyes are just not what they once were, so I need plenty of help for this sort of thing. I use HSS toolbits for most work, and grinding a 60 degree unified national form threading tool is something I've done many times. When a thread form tool for fine pitch or "close fit" threads is needed, I usually wind up stoning the flanks (sides) of the tool to get it the last little way to make the fit with the center gauge.

On the other hand, the outside possibility is that Lufkin did something totally off the wall and used a thread form other than the unified national form (60 degree) thread in common use in the USA. I kind of doubt it, though.

I'd make a dummy gauge, as I noted, if for no other purpose than verifying that the mike anvils are 50 threads/inch and unified national form threads. This gets you nowhere in terms of replacement parts, but it gives you information to use to track down a tap.
 
L Vanice is spot on with the optical comparator . . . measure over as many threads as you can and divide by the number of threads to get a good 'average' of the pitch. Finding a tap is not very likely, but a single point thread mill in a vmc could make your nut. The same tool in a manual lathe could even do a good job of internal threading.
 
Trick is to count a large number of thread crests (ten is a good number) and measure the
distance between the ten with a GOOD scale. Under a microscope. Not easy to do
unless you fix the threaded part AND the scale and then count using a fine point like a
dental probe.

Before you single-point the part take the time to flip through the MSC big book catalog
because they do have a section for 'special' thread taps. You might be suprised at
what you find there.

Also you *can* make your own tap. O-1 steel, single point the threads, mill a couple
of flutes. If you make the nut from brass you probably don't have to heat-treat it.
 
+1 on Larry and Jim's recommendations for a.) optical comparator, and b.) counting the maximum number of thread crests you can to determine average pitch. I have been fooled on a couple of occasions, where there were only 3 or 4 threads to work with, regarding the true thread pitch of some oddball stuff. If you have a lathe that will actually make 50TPI, you can try making your own test gage.
 
Once you determine thread spec, you could probably single point the nut with less trouble then making a tap.
If the nut doesn't work, adjust your spec and try another one. You could make a dummy male 'gage' to monitor the nut.
If the tap doesn't work, you would have to make another one.
Work on the threaded part first. When it is right, then finish the rest.
An optical comparator sounds like a good way to determine the spec. You would not need a template. It can simply be measured with the table movements.
Don't forget you will need both pitch AND pitch diameter.
 
All this theoretical stuff is great, but the guy ain't working for NASA. All he needs is a nut that will work,not hold 10 tons. Determine the pitch, fire up the lathe, and have at it. So what if you scrap 3 cents worth of steel? Try again.
 
I have, in the recent past, made some taps that did not exist outside of a special order( 3/4"-42).. I found that the 0-1 should be cut to max diameter, threads single-pointed and then the blank hardened before grinding the flutes...on 40+ tpi shop made taps, the burrs brought up in milling the flutes cannot be removed easily(or at all). To determine TPI on an unknown threaded screw, I use a gauge and a toolmakers microscope...repeatedly checking the suspected TPI, with the gauge immediately above and below, until satisfied.
 
Just stick a stub of your preferred metal in a collet in the lathe, knurl the OD, face it, bore it, and start threading until it fits smoothly. Part off to suitable thickness, and finish the parted side.
Perhaps first practice on something easy such as 6061Al, or some 360 brass to be sure of the thread count and approximate dial numbers before loading up the steel finish blank.

I would suggest that even if a tap were available, using it on a part such as the retaining nut for a mic anvil would not be the best choice. Sure, the anvil locates on a factory precision shoulder, so the nut should have minor influence if "pretty darn close" But I would prefer to use best practices for an instrument part and make the whole thing, faced, bored and threaded, in one set up on the lathe with single point tools. Unless you have cut knurls, the knurling should be done first so that it does not distort the threads or form of a small nut.

It does help if you have a surface grinder to make the threading tool.
An alternate & often used option is to take any 60° thread tap, pick a good full form tooth for the cutting bit, and grind everything else out of the way. Obviously to approximate ideal lead angles, the donor tap should be a high tpi count and small teeth to improve the available shank dia. Keep the reduced shank as short as possible, and as large OD as practical.

PS: unless you hope to sell the set later as original, a brass nut would probably actually work fine for your app & it is non-marring on the other parts. If I was all set up, I'd probably make one of each, steel and brass. One to use, one for "later" when my widow has to move the parts on to the next caretaker :)

smt
 
Ummm....

Very impressive gentlemen, and more than I expected. Thank you. I'm sorry to say that I'm way out of my league here in this thread - as it were - in terms of machining capability and knowledge of same. I have ZERO training in any of this stuff. Even if I could cut threads, the thought of cutting that which I cannot even see clearly fails to even register in my mind. The best I can likely hope to do is come up with the approximate thread pitch, and even that is stretching it. I've got a bunch of reading glasses, a Bausch & Lomb visor, an old Lufkin thread pitch gauge, and a flashlight. Not too promising, but I'll see what I can do.

Clint said "A Man has to Know His Limitations," and mine are glaring at me at the moment!
 
Lufkin made a lot of these. I figure it would be easiest to watch Ebay for another mic like this to show up that's not complete or as nice as yours to take the nut you need off of. Lufkin may have used the same nut on other possible donor tools as well.
 
Once you determine thread spec, you could probably single point the nut with less trouble then making a tap.
If the nut doesn't work, adjust your spec and try another one. You could make a dummy male 'gage' to monitor the nut.
If the tap doesn't work, you would have to make another one.
Work on the threaded part first. When it is right, then finish the rest.
An optical comparator sounds like a good way to determine the spec. You would not need a template. It can simply be measured with the table movements.
Don't forget you will need both pitch AND pitch diameter.

I want to see that internal single point threading tool after it's ground off hand ;-)
A picture at 4X would be a riot! ;-0


But with that.

I did once see a pretty nift gadget used just for the purpose of small thread determination.

It was a device much like a small caliper, in that it had a sliding member and a scale. In use, the sliding member, which was configured with a small "hook" on the end, was extended a certain amount . Then the screw thread was butted up against the fixed member. (think of using the back end of a caliper for grip length checking) with the "hook" engaging one of the threads. The sliding member was then closed while dragging the "hook" over the thread crests. Each crest encountered while moving to the closed position resulted in an easily FELT' count of the threads.
A look at the scale reading before and after would tell the user the pitch per inch (or fraction there of ;-)

Pretty neat device. I've never needed one, but this thread remined me of the experience of seening one.

cheers

Cal
 
If one had an extra one of those Lufkin anvils, which are, of course, hardened steel, one could grind flutes in the threads and sharpen the end to convert it to a tap.

I have no need to grind a tiny internal single point threading tool. I have several sizes made by Komet and bought from SPI many years ago that go down to darn small. They are made like the USA Bokum boring bars where you just sharpen them on the top of the cutting edge and the 60 degree angle is on a spiral. Actually, I think I also have some internal threading tools made by Bokum that I found somewhere. Examples of the Bokum threading tools, mixed in with ordinary boring bars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bokum-lathe...508?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418b76c34c

Larry
 
I think Mel has the right idea, at least for someone in your position who hasn't the means to machine one. It may be the cheapest solution outright. I see Lufkin tools selling for short money on ebay pretty regularly. Find a mic in bad shape or missing pieces and you'll have your nut for probably less than $20 or $30. You'll also get some other "spare" parts in the deal you may, or someone else may need down the line.
 
A perspective on the 50 pitch thread,I own 3 vintage engine lathes including one with change gears, none of which will cut a 50 pitch thread.On the brighter side starrett's best thread gauge does include a 50 pitch gauge.That is a neat micrometer,worth saving.
 
Well...

My comparator was an Aristo Grid Lamp, Model M1457-3 for you Aristo fans. Some of Roslyn, NY's finest! Looking at it from a 30x perspective, I can confirm that my eyes aided by the Bausch & Lomb visor did not lie to me.

LufkinThreadGage.jpg


Using the appropriately sourced No. 74C Lufkin Thread Gage to measure this Lufkin part - which reads all the way to a nearly invisible 80tpi - confirms this. Do they use this to measure Emery clothe grain? Anywho... my anvil thread is just about dead on 50tpi. I would not call it perfect, but it is so close that I do not think it is any sort of bastard thread.

The real question is.... WHOLLY CRAPOLLY... how does anything thread with all that gunk in the way? I mean... rub, blow, brush... it was hard to get the garbage out of the threads to get the gage in. It's a far different world at 30x!!!
 








 
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