I did a forum search, but came up empty: What's the oldest metalworking lathe we know of? I remember seeing a foot-powered lathe in the silversmiths shop in Colonial Williamsburg, but the guide did not know if it was a replica. 1890's lathes still seem pretty common, whose got something older?

Let's limit this to lathes with a moving toolpost, not just a toolrest for hand-held tools; sound fair?

Do you mean the oldest lathe on this forum, or in general? I know the French were using hand cranked, large flywheel lathes to work metal in the late 1600's but no slide rests or screw cutting abilities. That fell to Maudsley (God bless 'im). To me, a real "metal lathe" does not require the machinist to use hand tools of any kind and SHOULD have screw cutting capabilities....so is that the criteria?

I used to own a New Haven with documentation dating it to the Civil War (no hole through the spindle), but "upgraded" to a Putnam from the 1880's or so. Incredibly, that New Haven was very accurate, but at over 18' long it just took up too much room!

I'm sure there are several forum members with very old machines, rescued from the jaws of the scrapper.....real museum pieces, but still capable of work.

At one time I had an old Lodge&Shipley with a manuf. date of April 12, 1894.It had screw cutting capabilities.

I am certain lathes date back to the Greek and Romans - probably earlier. The more folks study (or literally dig) into technology the more amazing work we discover was done in the past.

I recently acquired a copy of "The History of Machine Tools 1700-1910" by W. Steeds. This is great book and what makes it for me are all the illustrations and photos. The chapter covering machinery from 1800-1830 is simply amazing: boring, drilling,planers,lathes - even milling of sorts!

As stated by George Andreasen, Maudsley seems to get the credit for first 'modern' lathe based on use of a tool holder around 1810. As always the real story may get muddied up by conflicting claims.

Seems boring the inside of a cannon is a very similar machine to turning the outside of a cylinder. That was done by various application of water/animal and much human effort with machines - around 1700 at least. Military secrets....

The European royals had fancy machines dating way/way back (pre 1700). Rivett showed me some engravings. It would blow you away to see the machines and ideas secretly played with by the nobility. And the frivolous application of same. I dont have a good book handy to pull out any date for you.

Anyway.... I go with 1810. I believe several example survive in British museums. from that year, 1810, including a Maudsley w/ tool holder in Science Museum, London.

Some of the oldest "modern" metal lathes had triangular beds. The recent thread on triangular bed lathes includes information on that design, that dates to the 18th century. The slide rest was also available then, though much metal turning was done before slide rests were invented.

Larry

Are you intending to get a list of lathes older than the 1890's by members here? Or just dates of the oldest lathes we've seen or heard of? Several folks here have lathes from the 1860's and 1870's, and maybe some even older.

Irby

The American Precision Museum (Windsor, Vermont) has a lathe from the mid 1830's. Details from unreliable memory:

1. chain-driven power-feed + clutch
2. no lead-screw
3. 12' long
4. ways: 8" x 10" X 12' granite "beams" with 1/2" x 4" strap-iron wear-members on top of the granite. The granite beams are through-bolted to 10" x 12" wooden timbers - the whole assembly constituting the lathe bed.
5. French manufacture (?)


Unfortunately, the museum website has few images of the collection:

Welcome to the American Precision Museum

This is my favorite old lathe, period. Granite bed, chain drive. Most definitely, American (as in USA) Manufacture.

Pictures don't do this justice.

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The very same.

>>>Pictures don't do this justice.

More justice than words.

Clearly the iron way-toppers aren't flat - maybe I morphed mental images: the granite + strap-iron that composed the track on the original Baltimore & Ohio RR ...

It is a spectacular old lathe, but don't let the hand made parts of granite and wrought iron fool you into thinking it is the oldest lathe in America.

Pictures taken 16Sep08:





Here is another lathe at APM that they think is about the same age, and both are newer than the Wilkinson products from Pawtucket, RI.





Larry

This thread is getting interesting. I was about to challenge L Vance and in preparation reread parts of my copy of "Studies in the History of Machine Tools" by Woodbury, published by MIT press.

I will paraphrase "The Wilkinson lathe of 1796 ....blah blah blah... clearly predates Maudsley"! A patent was granted in 98. Unfortunately, no photo - it does not survive. MIT credits David Wilkinson as the founder of the american machine tool industry, on a par with Maudsley influence in England.

The MIT book also mentions Sinot's (French)lathe predates Wilkinson's, with change gears and screw cutting capability.

This is the Wilkinson of Slaters Mill in RI. Another nice place to visit and see old machines operational under water power. No early Wilkinson lathe though, sorry.

I think the examples in the Brittish museums are probably the oldest surviving industrial lathes?

Those are remarkable lathes in the photos above. The weighted ‘rise and fall’ cross slide persisted for a long time, despite its apparent lack of merit (as far as I can see). I posted some photos of a somewhat later (1870s??) American lathe with this feature that I saw recently, but there were no expressions of interest from its home country.

There are some interesting-looking features on the green lathe that I’d like to know more about, including the worm and wheel gubbins down below (reversible fine traverse??).

A lot of extremely old lathes have survived, but rarely do they have the provenance to assign a date to them. Notable exceptions include two displayed in Paris, one by Vaucanson (1775) and another by Senot (1795), both shown in L T C Rolt's Tools for the Job.

The Science Museum in London has Maudslay’s c.1800 screwcutting lathe.

Occasionally I see machines that set me back on my heels, as I can’t reconcile their appearance with their era. One such is Richard Roberts’ 1817 lathe in the Science Museum, in the link below. Roberts was a remarkable man, who seems to have fallen out of a time machine.

Very old lathe

The late lamented Bridewell Museum in Norwich had an impressive lathe, well, more of a machining centre, made by a local clockmaker c.1810 - 1815:-

Old machines in Norwich

Wow! Great stuff. My thinking on this originally was to see who on this board had the oldest working metalworking lathe. I think the earliest records of a lathe for wood date back to 1300 B.C.

My recollection of the silversmith's lathe (c. 1770) got me wondering. I started from the assumption that, like any new tech. (such as steam engines) you first needed the tools. I had thought that industrial-age machine tools must have started becoming common around 1800. These photos are great, just the kind of response I expected from this group; well done!

So the question stands: who on this board has the oldest working metalworking lathe with a toolpost? Pictures required to claim bragging rights...

Here are the rest of my pics of that lathe. I missed getting one of the left end of the headstock, but I see a hint of a rack and pinion rod actuating the longitudinal feed from the big wooden pulley on the front, with a reversing (and neutral?) lever for the power feed on the apron. I thought the back gearing was a rather advanced feature for the time.

Larry

I cannot date this, wont even try. I sure dont claim its oldest. I believe, it is typical of the oldest type. It is chain drive, with some power feed parts gone MIA. And, It is back geared, but no thread cutting. Some of these have wood frames, some have partial iron and partial wood. That is no indication of date, just part of the variation. Manufacture of this pattern perhaps spans 1820-1840's give or take. I really dont know that either. I do feel, anyone (or museum) tossing around exact dates for any particular machine of this type should be challenged.

What it is, for me is an on going labor of love to bring this back from a pile of junk. I was able to save the beetle infested wooden pulley with a wood preservative product developed for rotten window sills. The wisdom of that could be questioned. Looking at the legs - You can see the color mismatch. One leg was cast using other as pattern. Since this photo, I found a better weight for the saddle. I can hand feed the carriage after individually freeing up each rusted link. I heard that there a similar lathe close to here. I hope to examine the feed on that some time, or see photos.

It is kind of a nut buster to spend so many hours on a rusted pile of parts only to hear there maybe another, in prime condition, in warehouse storage. Maybe? Then maybe not. Unique, undated and unsigned is the rule not the exception for this vintage machine.

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Larry,

Excellent, thank you.

If the lathe was made in 1825, then back gear was well-established by then. For example, Roberts’ 1817 lathe had it.

An odd thing is that Steeds’ book has a section devoted to Baxter D Whitney’s 1854 lathe, which was presumably regarded as advanced for its time, and that lathe has many of the features seen in the green lathe and the stone bed lathe, including the worm and wheel rack feed, the big wheel on the left, V ways, offsetting tailstock ‘poppet’, rise and fall cross slide. Steeds’ information comes from American Machinist 14 March 1908.

I guess some owners are modest, because I know there are more old chain drive lathes out there. And one thing I learned about the world of www for every one I ever saw there must be 100 more.

I would post pictures of my two chain lathes(one wood bed and one iron bed), but I have no pictures of them and they are inaccessable to take a good picture of.
The problem of having to many machines or too little room.
My iron bed lathe is earlier than my wood bed lathe. I always thought my iron bed lathe was of the mid 1830's vintage.

I have my doubts about the date the APM has given to the green lathe above. I think it is later.

Who has the oldest working metalworking lathe with a toolpost on this board is going to be a hard one to answer as most of these lathes were not marked with a makers name, so dating them is quite hard.


Rob

Here is another chain drive. Chain and rack? This one from Slaters Mill in RI.

I dont see the purpose of that rack. It looks to be just sitting there?

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This doesn't relate to the now defined focus of this thread, but since several stabs have been made at the absolute oldest lathe as a concept that was actually made and used...

Don't forget the Biblical reference of Tubal Cain in Genesis (the early part of recorded history in the book) as being the father of metal workers.

I can only assume he used a lathe. I have read over the years references to the fact that the lathe is attributed as being the oldest tool above hand tools.

I would imagine certain arifacts of antiquity that exist, from backwards engineering/thought, could yeild more hints about the oldest metal lathes (likely not with tool holders and screw cutting cababilities though) that although would have "been needed to make such artifacts", the lathes themselves are not extant.

The concept in general about spinning and moving the workpiece instead of the tool to work/cut it I'm sure has to be a very, very old idea. The easiest way to move a work piece besides sliding in on a table such as on a table saw, would be to spin it.

I do have a more relevant question....When were screw threads actually concieved of and starting to be used in civilization? The next logical step is a feed rod on a lathe from inventing screw threads.

My foggy memory seems to recall that screw threads were originally cut by hand for wood screws in the 16-1700's, in either England or France, but I would love some clarification/more info on that as I don't trust my memory or even the sources I can't recall at the moment.

This is a most interesting thread.

I would love to see more members early metal lathes.

It would be fun sometime here I think to have a show off sticky of such machines in the Antique section on PM for this purpose and use it as a reference sticky.

I think that would be a great resource.

Chris