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Photo: ...Harley Davidson Factory...
- Thread starter lathefan
- Start date
- Replies 202
- Views 82,882
Joe Michaels
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Location
- Shandaken, NY, USA
Lathefan:
You have posted another great set of pictures. The first photo is actually a Harley Davidson factory agent or salesman. In the large "trunk" is a demonstrator model of that year's motorcycle. The factory agent travelled by train and the "trunk" went in the baggage car. At each town or city where he stopped, the demonstrator model was delivered by an "Express Company" (such as the old Railway Express) to the dealer's address so the factory agent could show it and explain the new improvements.
The second photo looks like the mechanic is assembling one of the "Inlet Over Exhaust" engines, maybe late 'teens into the 'twenties. It looks like he is peering down to see when top dead center is reached to lock in some asjustment. I believe the last years for the inlet-over-exhaust engines for HD were the mid to late 20's, with the J models.
The sixth photo looks like the HD "service school" for dealers' mechanics. In those days a lot of dealers WERE the mechanics. In the times that photo was taken, HD dealers were not the huge "boutique" type dealerships with showrooms more devoted to clothing and gimcracks (aka "The Harley Davidson Experience") than motorcycles and parts for them. Dealers sold Harleys out of garages, sheds, or some existing type of business, and were more of the hometown mom-n-pop type enterprise. The bike being worked upon in the class looks like a 45 cu in flathead model, WL ?
The seventh photo is a famous one. It shows the actual founders- Harley and the Davidson Brothers- looking over a "Knucklehead" model. This would be about 1936 or '37 when the Knucklehead engines and motorcycles first came out. The Knucklehead was H-D's first foray into an overhead valve engine. It was also their first foray into a more streamlined and integrated design of motorcycle, with the tank being more rounded and fitted down onto the frame.
The remaining pictures are the building of flat track racing motorcycles, and hill climbing. Both are sports I never had the nerve to partake of. It was a different era when hill climbs and flat track racing were happening in many towns on almost every weekend during the riding seasons. Many dealers had a "hill climb" hill, as did local motorcycle clubs. It was a sport that required a lot of nerve, and more often than not, as is shown, the bike came back up and over the rider. Flat track racing was another ballsy sport. No brakes on the bikes. The riders wore a steel plate on one boot, known as the "hot shoe". Coming into turns, the riders would often broad slide the bikes to slow them down and use the leg with the hot shoe stuck out to stabilize things and help hold the bike up until they could gun out of it. It is rare now to find a local hometown hill climb or flat track race.
Harley Davidson's ancestral home is Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The old plant still stands. HD did grow and spread to other plants in other parts of the country. The big move came when AMF owned Harley and they had an unused stamping plant in York, PA. Stamping of fenders, tanks, and making of frames and assembly of finished bikes for many of the model lines happens in York, PA. Engines and transmissions are built at a plant in Wisconsin outside of Milwaukee. The Sportsters and Dyna series of bikes are built in Kansas City in a new plant with a lot of robotics and automation.
I think the Milwaukee plant is used as corporate headquarters and for R & D, as well as for engineering and some limited manufacturing. Back in the day, up into the 'fifties when HD was building the "Panhead" motorcycles, frames were built in the Milwaukee plant using brazing to join the parts together. As late as the early 60's, HD was using charcoal forge fires to heat the heavy "neck" casting where the frame tubes join the neck of the bike, and was using a combination of forge and oxyacetylene for the brazed joints on the frames. The cast parts were malleable iron, and they produced a very strong frame with those methods.
There was always a lot of hand work in building a HD motorcycle until the current twin cam engines came along. The older series engines had a crankshaft that was built up and required truing on a set of bench centers before locking the crankpin into the flywheels. HD had a lot of mechanics who specialized in this kind of hand assembly of the engines, right into the 80's. When the twin cam engines took over, HD got to using a lot more robotics and automation. The frames are all assembled on jigs and welded using robotics to perform GMAW (solid wire, or MIG) or robotic GTAW (TIG with the wire coming off a spool rather than as a single rod) welds. The old bikes were built to much looser tolerances, and they were more like tractors when compared to the British bikes. When HD started shifting production out of the Milwaukee plant shown in these photos, the tolerances on the parts tightened up, and quality and reliability began to improve. There were standing jokes about HD motorcycles leaking oil, being unreliable, and often were referred to as "Milwaukee vibrators". When HD went to the Evolution engine, things took a dramatic upturn in terms of overall design, and quality. I will admit to falling under the spell of Harley Davidson. In addition to my old BMW Airhead motorcycle, I do own and ride a 2005 HD Dyna Lowrider. I got it new as a surprise fee for an engineering job I had done. I can honestly say it is a comfortable bike to ride all day long over long distances on the highways. I can also say it has been a reliable and good motorcycle. What I can also say from experience is that it can be a whore's nightmare to work on compared to the old Airhead BMW bike. HD was looking to cut costs and meet some EPA standard with noise levels, so they had used a chain drive between the two camshafts. I had put about 45,000 miles on the Dyna Lowrider, when a man in our community, a retired aircraft mechanic and HD rider, warned me of a fatal flaw in the 88 cu in twin cam engine series. At somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 miles, the cam chain tensioner would wear out and when the tensioner arm started riding on the chain, it did not take long for the engine to self destruct. HD knew of this problem, and conveniently exempted it from their original and extended warranties. So, at 45 K miles, I learned about the anatomy of a twin cam HD engine. We did what the factory should have done in the first place- converted to a geared camshaft drive. We also added more easily adjustable pushrods, and an improved reed plate so the crankcase could breather better and stop belching oil mist out the air cleaner when running hard. When I tell other HD riders about this, most look at me strangely and ask: "You mean you actually put 45,000 miles on your Hog ?" I answer that I ride my motorcycles, and ride them not just on little local hauls but on longer trips. Apparently the Harley riders of the last 20-25 years are a different breed. More into "styling" and not into really riding long hauls, and not into working on their own bikes. For many Harley riders of the current crop, it is about wearing the tee shirt and bolting on more chrome gimcracks, preferably with skulls, and polishing the bike endlessly. We joke: I am one of the few Harley riders with a dirty Harley, and one of the few Harley riders who does not sport the classic "Harley gut". The current crop of HD riders could never attempt a hill climb or flat track race in the shape they are in. It is a very different era for Harley riders and dealers. HD in the past 20 years or so, did a good job of eliminating the old Mom-n-Pop type dealerships. The dealers who remained as HD dealers had to build huge showrooms and carry a huge inventory of "Motorclothes" (HD's line of anything from tee shirts to tank tops and leathers and women's handbags and similar glitzy items) aside from a huge number of bikes on the showroom floor. Instead of the factory agent showing up with a trunk containing the next year's demonstrator motorcycle, it is a tractor trailer with HD's orange-and-black color scheme and "bar and shield" emblems. Walk into an HD dealer and the showroom floors are clean and free of oil spots, and no pans or cardboard is under the bikes. Fancy lighting, endless racks of clothing and accessories, and plenty of new motorcycles all are there to hopefully dazzle anyone into buying something that day. I find the parts counter when I need an oil filter or gaskets when I service the Dyna Lowrider. The parts counter is kind of hard to find amidst the "boutique" environment of our local HD dealer. Our local dealer started in a barn near Woodstock, NY. I remember when Woodstock HD was in that barn, back behind the dealer's home. They were told by HD that if they wanted to keep their franchise, they had to get with the program. The result is Woodstock, NY HD is not in Woodstock, but located a few miles from it on the major road through the region. The showroom is bigger than many new car dealers. The parking lot is often packed with organized events like chili cook offs and similar, or packed with enough demonstrator bikes to fill a good portion of the lot. I honestly think the local HD dealer does more business selling tee shirts and similar to people who come up from NY City. It is a long way from the era depicted in these photos. One thing is consistent, though. HD never had abandoned their vee twin engine configuration, and they still put both connecting rods on the same crankpin. The result is that characteristic Harley sound and characteristic Harley vibration. My Dyna Lowrider has an 88 cu in twin cam engine, on "iso elastic" mounting. Harley engineers got that part right, and very little of the engine vibration is felt up at the handlebars or in the seat. However, at idle and at a standstill, I can see the Hog jumping up and down by the movement of the bike relative to the front axle. There is no mistaking a Hog. They do vibrate and they do have their characteristic sound. As a design, HD is years behind the curve. What they survived and prospered on was loyalty and the image or culture associated with owning and riding Harleys. If I put my old Airhead BMW side by side with my Harley, I am not ashamed to say that the BMW Airhead, built in 1978, is as close to perfection in an air cooled motorcycle engine and as forgiving and sweet handling a bike as I'd want. The Harley is what it is, and to try to make it into what it is not- a fast performance sport bike- is not something remotely possible. I accept and enjoy my Harley for the motorcycle that she is, and she has carried me over the miles comfortably and safely. I enjoy riding my Hog, but for runs to the grocery store, or for runs over back roads on jobs, or riding two-up with my wife aboard, we take the old BMW. Each motorcycle has its place. Harley stuck with what worked for them on a variety of levels, and relied on the mystique. Now, my generation- the "baby boomers"- may well be the last generation of real Harley riders. The younger generations of riders want sport bikes or sport touring bikes. It is not something a Harley lends itself to. How much longer Harley will be allowed to build air cooled engines is another matter. Air quality and noise standards may eventually force Harley into putting the liquid cooled "V Rod" engines into the balance of their line. When that happens, it will be the end of what may well be the longest running design- the air cooled vee twin engine.
You have posted another great set of pictures. The first photo is actually a Harley Davidson factory agent or salesman. In the large "trunk" is a demonstrator model of that year's motorcycle. The factory agent travelled by train and the "trunk" went in the baggage car. At each town or city where he stopped, the demonstrator model was delivered by an "Express Company" (such as the old Railway Express) to the dealer's address so the factory agent could show it and explain the new improvements.
The second photo looks like the mechanic is assembling one of the "Inlet Over Exhaust" engines, maybe late 'teens into the 'twenties. It looks like he is peering down to see when top dead center is reached to lock in some asjustment. I believe the last years for the inlet-over-exhaust engines for HD were the mid to late 20's, with the J models.
The sixth photo looks like the HD "service school" for dealers' mechanics. In those days a lot of dealers WERE the mechanics. In the times that photo was taken, HD dealers were not the huge "boutique" type dealerships with showrooms more devoted to clothing and gimcracks (aka "The Harley Davidson Experience") than motorcycles and parts for them. Dealers sold Harleys out of garages, sheds, or some existing type of business, and were more of the hometown mom-n-pop type enterprise. The bike being worked upon in the class looks like a 45 cu in flathead model, WL ?
The seventh photo is a famous one. It shows the actual founders- Harley and the Davidson Brothers- looking over a "Knucklehead" model. This would be about 1936 or '37 when the Knucklehead engines and motorcycles first came out. The Knucklehead was H-D's first foray into an overhead valve engine. It was also their first foray into a more streamlined and integrated design of motorcycle, with the tank being more rounded and fitted down onto the frame.
The remaining pictures are the building of flat track racing motorcycles, and hill climbing. Both are sports I never had the nerve to partake of. It was a different era when hill climbs and flat track racing were happening in many towns on almost every weekend during the riding seasons. Many dealers had a "hill climb" hill, as did local motorcycle clubs. It was a sport that required a lot of nerve, and more often than not, as is shown, the bike came back up and over the rider. Flat track racing was another ballsy sport. No brakes on the bikes. The riders wore a steel plate on one boot, known as the "hot shoe". Coming into turns, the riders would often broad slide the bikes to slow them down and use the leg with the hot shoe stuck out to stabilize things and help hold the bike up until they could gun out of it. It is rare now to find a local hometown hill climb or flat track race.
Harley Davidson's ancestral home is Milwaukee, Wisconsin. The old plant still stands. HD did grow and spread to other plants in other parts of the country. The big move came when AMF owned Harley and they had an unused stamping plant in York, PA. Stamping of fenders, tanks, and making of frames and assembly of finished bikes for many of the model lines happens in York, PA. Engines and transmissions are built at a plant in Wisconsin outside of Milwaukee. The Sportsters and Dyna series of bikes are built in Kansas City in a new plant with a lot of robotics and automation.
I think the Milwaukee plant is used as corporate headquarters and for R & D, as well as for engineering and some limited manufacturing. Back in the day, up into the 'fifties when HD was building the "Panhead" motorcycles, frames were built in the Milwaukee plant using brazing to join the parts together. As late as the early 60's, HD was using charcoal forge fires to heat the heavy "neck" casting where the frame tubes join the neck of the bike, and was using a combination of forge and oxyacetylene for the brazed joints on the frames. The cast parts were malleable iron, and they produced a very strong frame with those methods.
There was always a lot of hand work in building a HD motorcycle until the current twin cam engines came along. The older series engines had a crankshaft that was built up and required truing on a set of bench centers before locking the crankpin into the flywheels. HD had a lot of mechanics who specialized in this kind of hand assembly of the engines, right into the 80's. When the twin cam engines took over, HD got to using a lot more robotics and automation. The frames are all assembled on jigs and welded using robotics to perform GMAW (solid wire, or MIG) or robotic GTAW (TIG with the wire coming off a spool rather than as a single rod) welds. The old bikes were built to much looser tolerances, and they were more like tractors when compared to the British bikes. When HD started shifting production out of the Milwaukee plant shown in these photos, the tolerances on the parts tightened up, and quality and reliability began to improve. There were standing jokes about HD motorcycles leaking oil, being unreliable, and often were referred to as "Milwaukee vibrators". When HD went to the Evolution engine, things took a dramatic upturn in terms of overall design, and quality. I will admit to falling under the spell of Harley Davidson. In addition to my old BMW Airhead motorcycle, I do own and ride a 2005 HD Dyna Lowrider. I got it new as a surprise fee for an engineering job I had done. I can honestly say it is a comfortable bike to ride all day long over long distances on the highways. I can also say it has been a reliable and good motorcycle. What I can also say from experience is that it can be a whore's nightmare to work on compared to the old Airhead BMW bike. HD was looking to cut costs and meet some EPA standard with noise levels, so they had used a chain drive between the two camshafts. I had put about 45,000 miles on the Dyna Lowrider, when a man in our community, a retired aircraft mechanic and HD rider, warned me of a fatal flaw in the 88 cu in twin cam engine series. At somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 miles, the cam chain tensioner would wear out and when the tensioner arm started riding on the chain, it did not take long for the engine to self destruct. HD knew of this problem, and conveniently exempted it from their original and extended warranties. So, at 45 K miles, I learned about the anatomy of a twin cam HD engine. We did what the factory should have done in the first place- converted to a geared camshaft drive. We also added more easily adjustable pushrods, and an improved reed plate so the crankcase could breather better and stop belching oil mist out the air cleaner when running hard. When I tell other HD riders about this, most look at me strangely and ask: "You mean you actually put 45,000 miles on your Hog ?" I answer that I ride my motorcycles, and ride them not just on little local hauls but on longer trips. Apparently the Harley riders of the last 20-25 years are a different breed. More into "styling" and not into really riding long hauls, and not into working on their own bikes. For many Harley riders of the current crop, it is about wearing the tee shirt and bolting on more chrome gimcracks, preferably with skulls, and polishing the bike endlessly. We joke: I am one of the few Harley riders with a dirty Harley, and one of the few Harley riders who does not sport the classic "Harley gut". The current crop of HD riders could never attempt a hill climb or flat track race in the shape they are in. It is a very different era for Harley riders and dealers. HD in the past 20 years or so, did a good job of eliminating the old Mom-n-Pop type dealerships. The dealers who remained as HD dealers had to build huge showrooms and carry a huge inventory of "Motorclothes" (HD's line of anything from tee shirts to tank tops and leathers and women's handbags and similar glitzy items) aside from a huge number of bikes on the showroom floor. Instead of the factory agent showing up with a trunk containing the next year's demonstrator motorcycle, it is a tractor trailer with HD's orange-and-black color scheme and "bar and shield" emblems. Walk into an HD dealer and the showroom floors are clean and free of oil spots, and no pans or cardboard is under the bikes. Fancy lighting, endless racks of clothing and accessories, and plenty of new motorcycles all are there to hopefully dazzle anyone into buying something that day. I find the parts counter when I need an oil filter or gaskets when I service the Dyna Lowrider. The parts counter is kind of hard to find amidst the "boutique" environment of our local HD dealer. Our local dealer started in a barn near Woodstock, NY. I remember when Woodstock HD was in that barn, back behind the dealer's home. They were told by HD that if they wanted to keep their franchise, they had to get with the program. The result is Woodstock, NY HD is not in Woodstock, but located a few miles from it on the major road through the region. The showroom is bigger than many new car dealers. The parking lot is often packed with organized events like chili cook offs and similar, or packed with enough demonstrator bikes to fill a good portion of the lot. I honestly think the local HD dealer does more business selling tee shirts and similar to people who come up from NY City. It is a long way from the era depicted in these photos. One thing is consistent, though. HD never had abandoned their vee twin engine configuration, and they still put both connecting rods on the same crankpin. The result is that characteristic Harley sound and characteristic Harley vibration. My Dyna Lowrider has an 88 cu in twin cam engine, on "iso elastic" mounting. Harley engineers got that part right, and very little of the engine vibration is felt up at the handlebars or in the seat. However, at idle and at a standstill, I can see the Hog jumping up and down by the movement of the bike relative to the front axle. There is no mistaking a Hog. They do vibrate and they do have their characteristic sound. As a design, HD is years behind the curve. What they survived and prospered on was loyalty and the image or culture associated with owning and riding Harleys. If I put my old Airhead BMW side by side with my Harley, I am not ashamed to say that the BMW Airhead, built in 1978, is as close to perfection in an air cooled motorcycle engine and as forgiving and sweet handling a bike as I'd want. The Harley is what it is, and to try to make it into what it is not- a fast performance sport bike- is not something remotely possible. I accept and enjoy my Harley for the motorcycle that she is, and she has carried me over the miles comfortably and safely. I enjoy riding my Hog, but for runs to the grocery store, or for runs over back roads on jobs, or riding two-up with my wife aboard, we take the old BMW. Each motorcycle has its place. Harley stuck with what worked for them on a variety of levels, and relied on the mystique. Now, my generation- the "baby boomers"- may well be the last generation of real Harley riders. The younger generations of riders want sport bikes or sport touring bikes. It is not something a Harley lends itself to. How much longer Harley will be allowed to build air cooled engines is another matter. Air quality and noise standards may eventually force Harley into putting the liquid cooled "V Rod" engines into the balance of their line. When that happens, it will be the end of what may well be the longest running design- the air cooled vee twin engine.
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
Hi Joe,
Some good history you have put down. I too grew up around Harley-Davidson motorcycles. My first job was sweeping the floor in an Indian dealer in Chicago, shortly after the Indian company went bankrupt. I later worked as a mechanic at another Indian dealer and a Harley dealer before leaving for California to race motorcycles.
The pictures Lathefan puts up are great. He's got a lot of them and I save them all.
The later Harley big twin engines, after 2007 have pretty much corrected the early Twin Cam problems. I have a 2011 Dyna Street Bob (FXDB) that has the later hydraulic cam chain tensioners and late bearing designs so it's pretty much a turn key bike. I don't ever modify the engines so they tend to kep running for me. This may well be my last bike because I don't ride as much as I used to. I've owned more than 40 machines since 1953 and this is the best one I ever owned.
As to the discussion regarding Harley vs. BMW, we will have to agreee to disagree. While I admire the German bikes, they don't talk to me like the Harleys (and Vintage Indians) do. For the most part, I've found that the BMW dealers are difficult to deal with, too. Could be that they are upset about the way that the two great wars turned out for them.
The Sixth photo appears to be a training class on the 1942 WLA Military bikes. I owned three of those at one time. I never paid nore than $50 for one. They were all over the place in Chicago when I was a kid. The dealers had mountains of surpus parts at dirt cheap prices, too ($2.00 for a crank pin; $20 for a new frame; $10 for a 45" lower end in the box, packed in Cosmolene, LOL)
The second photo is, of course, the first "Knucklehead", introduced in 1936. While it was not the first OHV Harley design, (they had an 8 valve board tracker in the 1920's and may have had others I don't know about), it was the first OHV model to be sold commercially and was an instant success. Also, it was the first Harley to have a recirculating oiling system. When it was introduced it was a 61 cu. in. engine (3-5/16" bore and 3-1/2" stroke. In 1941 HD introduced the first 74 cu. in OHV engine. ( 3-7/16" bore and 3-31/32" stroke.) For a while I had a 1935 VL 74" that I rode to High School. It was the last model with a total loss oiling system and you were supposed to give the hand pump a shot now and then. It would always blow some smoke out of gratitude when you gave it more oil. LOL.
In my shop. I still have my 1930 HD wheel lacing and truing jig and my 1937 Flywheel truing jig with the "finger dial indicators" on it. I've trued many 5 piece lower ends with that but it's obsolete now for the newer motors that have pressed together flywheels.
It's fun to hear someone who knows a lot of the history of Harley and bikes in general. I've never had a bad conversation talking about bikes.
Regards
Some good history you have put down. I too grew up around Harley-Davidson motorcycles. My first job was sweeping the floor in an Indian dealer in Chicago, shortly after the Indian company went bankrupt. I later worked as a mechanic at another Indian dealer and a Harley dealer before leaving for California to race motorcycles.
The pictures Lathefan puts up are great. He's got a lot of them and I save them all.
The later Harley big twin engines, after 2007 have pretty much corrected the early Twin Cam problems. I have a 2011 Dyna Street Bob (FXDB) that has the later hydraulic cam chain tensioners and late bearing designs so it's pretty much a turn key bike. I don't ever modify the engines so they tend to kep running for me. This may well be my last bike because I don't ride as much as I used to. I've owned more than 40 machines since 1953 and this is the best one I ever owned.
As to the discussion regarding Harley vs. BMW, we will have to agreee to disagree. While I admire the German bikes, they don't talk to me like the Harleys (and Vintage Indians) do. For the most part, I've found that the BMW dealers are difficult to deal with, too. Could be that they are upset about the way that the two great wars turned out for them.
The Sixth photo appears to be a training class on the 1942 WLA Military bikes. I owned three of those at one time. I never paid nore than $50 for one. They were all over the place in Chicago when I was a kid. The dealers had mountains of surpus parts at dirt cheap prices, too ($2.00 for a crank pin; $20 for a new frame; $10 for a 45" lower end in the box, packed in Cosmolene, LOL)
The second photo is, of course, the first "Knucklehead", introduced in 1936. While it was not the first OHV Harley design, (they had an 8 valve board tracker in the 1920's and may have had others I don't know about), it was the first OHV model to be sold commercially and was an instant success. Also, it was the first Harley to have a recirculating oiling system. When it was introduced it was a 61 cu. in. engine (3-5/16" bore and 3-1/2" stroke. In 1941 HD introduced the first 74 cu. in OHV engine. ( 3-7/16" bore and 3-31/32" stroke.) For a while I had a 1935 VL 74" that I rode to High School. It was the last model with a total loss oiling system and you were supposed to give the hand pump a shot now and then. It would always blow some smoke out of gratitude when you gave it more oil. LOL.
In my shop. I still have my 1930 HD wheel lacing and truing jig and my 1937 Flywheel truing jig with the "finger dial indicators" on it. I've trued many 5 piece lower ends with that but it's obsolete now for the newer motors that have pressed together flywheels.
It's fun to hear someone who knows a lot of the history of Harley and bikes in general. I've never had a bad conversation talking about bikes.
Regards
randyc
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Location
- Eureka, CA, USA
While it's true that H-D is ancient technology, the brand has completely dominated big bore flat track racing since the inception of the sport. The XR-750, shown in the eighth photo was developed in 1970 and is a thoroughbred racing machine, successful in both flat track and road racing.
Joe's description of the modern Harley dealer is so accurate that I almost laughed aloud. In the small town in northern California where I live, the infrastructure is old, the buildings are Victorian - nothing new has been constructed here since the nineteen-fifties EXCEPT for the space-age Harley dealership at the end of town.
It is a miracle of cleanliness (except for the beer bellies wandering around) and a miracle of marketing expertise.
This is my little 1993 Sportster 1200 - nothing special about it - doesn't leak oil, starts every time, gets from A to B fairly quickly and gets 50 mpg. Although it doesn't have an obnoxiously loud exhaust system, it does sound real nice
edited to add the following.
Favorite sound: low level pass of six P-51 Mustangs at the Watsonville Fly In.
Second favorite sound: six Harleys coming down the final straight of the San Jose Mile.
Joe's description of the modern Harley dealer is so accurate that I almost laughed aloud. In the small town in northern California where I live, the infrastructure is old, the buildings are Victorian - nothing new has been constructed here since the nineteen-fifties EXCEPT for the space-age Harley dealership at the end of town.
It is a miracle of cleanliness (except for the beer bellies wandering around) and a miracle of marketing expertise.
This is my little 1993 Sportster 1200 - nothing special about it - doesn't leak oil, starts every time, gets from A to B fairly quickly and gets 50 mpg. Although it doesn't have an obnoxiously loud exhaust system, it does sound real nice
edited to add the following.
Favorite sound: low level pass of six P-51 Mustangs at the Watsonville Fly In.
Second favorite sound: six Harleys coming down the final straight of the San Jose Mile.
randyc
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Location
- Eureka, CA, USA
Very ingenious rig and love the Packard ! It was a sad day when Packard production stopped (1954, 1955 ?) they were nice cars, especially old ones.
...I think the 1934 Packard Twelve was one of the best looking automobiles ever made...especially with the wide white walls and chrome wire wheels...imagine picking up your date in the two seat roadster...and if you were double dating...you could stick the other couple in the rumble seat...
...the coupe wasn't bad either...
...then of course there was that V12 engine...
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
Yes, Sportsters always did sound good. One reason is that the valve timing is absolutely perfect on each cylinder. The four cams are directly under each valve so that there is no angling and thus no timing variations as found on the Big Twin Harley motors.
One problem with the 1936 and later Big twins up to 1999 when the Twin Cam came back (earlier machines like the JD's had two cams.) is that with a single cam, all of the pushrods are of a different length. In fact, in an attempt to even out the pulses, the cam profiles on the front and rear cylinders are even ground slightly different.
When the new Twin Cam motors came into the line (1999 for the FL's and 2000 for the FL Softails) this problem was somewhat alleviated. With two cams, the timing became more accurate, although the pushrods are still different lengths. The difference is quite noticeable when listening to a Twin Cam idle as opposed to the earlier single cam motors. Instead of po-ta-to, po-ta-to, po-ta-to it's brat-wurst, brat-wurst. brat-wurst. LOL.
Those pictures are amazingly great. The two 8-valved bikes pictured are the rarest of the rare, with the exception of say a Cyclone Board Tracker, which, although it was from the same era and had only four valves, sported shaft-driven overhead camshafts for each cylinder.
Thanks for the great pictures, Mr. Lathefan!
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
...I think the 1934 Packard Twelve was one of the best looking automobiles ever made...especially with the wide white walls and chrome wire wheels...imagine picking up your date in the two seat roadster...and if you were double dating...you could stick the other couple in the rumble seat...
...the coupe wasn't bad either...
No argument from me. I loved the early Packards. In fact, when I was a kid in Chicago, all of the Checker and Yellow Cabs were vintage Packards.
Bill Harrah, the famous Nevada Casino owner, was partiial to Packards. I recall visiting his museum in Sparks, Nevada many times and drooling over his complete set of every classic year and body Packard ever built. They were perfectly restored and all perfectly glorious. Too bad that museum is now gone. There is still a museum in Reno but it's a mere shadow of the Harrah collection.
awander
Stainless
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
- Location
- Eastern PA
I think that is Bill Harley himself working on the engine in the second photo.
I love my '52 FL......
I love my '52 FL......
randyc
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Location
- Eureka, CA, USA
I know that the question has had to have been asked a jillion times so I gotta' apologize for this:
lathefan, where are you finding these hundreds and hundreds of fantastic photos ? And thank you for posting them; I always make it a point to look for your threads !
lathefan, where are you finding these hundreds and hundreds of fantastic photos ? And thank you for posting them; I always make it a point to look for your threads !
...most all are from Google image searches...using the right search terms and search tools...following links from photos to websites to other linked photos...also image databases on public library sites and historical society sites...
Joe Michaels
Diamond
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Location
- Shandaken, NY, USA
Newman:
Great post, and I really enjoyed reading it. You were riding bikes when I was a kid barely out of diapers. I've been riding over 40 years, so you go way back. Your mention of Indian and working for an Indian Dealer really sounds like it was an interesting experience. A few years back, my wife and I rode over to Rhinebeck, NY to the Antique Motorcycle Association's national meet. In one of the buildings, we saw a pair of beautiful old Indians- an Indian four and an Indian Chief. The man showing them was Butch Baer. My wife and I got to talking to Butch, who had quite a lot to tell us about the old Indian factory and riding for them. He let my wife sit on his prized Indians for a photo or two. Indian folded some 60 years ago, so finding anyone who has a real connection to the original Indian Motocycle (deliberate 'mis spelling') is getting to be kind of rare.
As a kind of funny story: about 20 years ago, I gave my daughter a ride from our house to town on the passenger seat of my old BMW bike. When we arrived in town, one of the oldtimers came over, with his thumbs hooked in his suspenders. He was an old tool and diemaker, and a hardcore train buff. The oldtimer said he had a question he'd been meaning to ask since 1939 and had never met anyone he thought would be able to answer it. He asked about the torque reaction in the bike from the BMW engine, and how it affected handling. I am probably so used to it that I do not notice it. I explained that the BMW has a very low center of gravity, and pretty well compensates for the "P force" or torque reaction from the axially mounted engine. I asked the oldtimer why he had waited from 1939 until 1995 to ask his question. He told me: he had been at the Indian plant in Springfield, Massachusetts, in 1939, and seen the Indian Fours being crated and loaded into boxcars for shipment. Seeing that engine placement in the motorcycle frame had caused the oldtimer to think of the torque reaction and he had it in the back of his mind for a mere 56 years. I asked the oldtimer if he was visiting Indian to take a factory tour, or if he had ever ridden motorcycles. He spat on the ground, growled he hated motorcycles, and the only reason he was at the Indian plant was to take photos of a steam locomotive switching cars on Indian's siding.
You are correct about people and talking about motorcycles. My wife and I sometimes take Sunday rides, and wind up in little cafe's for a cup of coffee and a slice of pie. This one Sunday also a good 10 years ago or so, my wife and I were sitting in a cafe in a little village, having coffee and pie. An old man and his wife came over to our table. The oldtimer saw by our leathers that we'd ridden there on a motorcycle. His wife had his elbow and was trying to head him off. It turned out the oldtimer had started riding on a 1936 Harley he had bought for 25 bucks with a seized engine. It was a couple of years old at the time, and the original owner's wife insisted the original owner get rid of it. The original owner stuck the bike in a chicken coop, and employed the man I was talking to- a kid at the time- as a dishwasher in his cafe. Anyhow, the fellow I was talking to bought that Harley and he and some friends at the local garage freed up the engine, honed the cylinders and put new rings in. He learned to ride that Harley and rode with some other fellows in the days before WWII. He explained a joke he'd play on the Indian riders. Apparently the Harley had the manual spark advance control lever on one side of the handlebars, while Indian had it on the opposite side. The Indian riders would knock the Harley, and he's say: "well, if you think my Harley is so bad a motorcycle, take a ride on it and tell me what you think after that..." The oldtimer would never tell the Indian riders where the spark advance was at, and let them think they had retarded the spark when they were actually working the choke. The Indian riders would try to kick start the Harley with the spark fully advanced, and that would generally result in a wicked kick back and occasionally launch an Indian rider up and over the bars.
The oldtimer asked if I understood what he was talking about, and I assured him I knew about manual spark advance and retarding the spark for starting. With that, he launched into quite a history of riding and old bikes. He told us he knew what BMW bikes were because he had ridden some captured German Army BMW's during WWII. We were having a wonderful time, and the man's wife was asking my wife if her husband was talking too much. My wife said that she was enjoying seeing the oldtimer enjoying himself. The oldtimer did tell us that I was one of the few people he'd run into who knew what a manual spark advance was, and understood what he was talking about. Moments like that, unfortunately, are almost a bygone thing as that generation of riders rides off into the great beyond.
I can fully understand and respect your assessment of BMW bikes. They are smooth running, incredibly forgiving machines. A Harley has an entirely different feel to it, just as a classic British bike has its own feel. I've owned and ridden all three. Each has a different style of riding, a different feel, and the British bike and the Hog do seem to seep into a person a lot differently than an old BMW. I remember the first time I rode a Hog, many years ago. It was the same sort of feeling I would get in the cab of a steam locomotive, a solid, powerful lugger. I enjoy my Dyna Lowrider a great deal, or I would not have gone ahead with the engine work to correct the problem with the camshaft drive chain. I went for an S & S geared camshaft drive, and, in a weak moment, listened to a couple of oldtime Hog mechanics a little too long. They convinced me to order a set of .510 cams from S & S, which are a little hotter than stock. Other than that, when we pulled the engine top end down, I saw the makings of some wear in the cylinders at 45 K miles. The engine was starting to use noticeably more oil. I was thinking in terms of honing the cylinders and putting in a new set of rings, and lapping in the valves. As luck would have it, a local Hog mechanic had a set of Dyna Lowrider jugs, pistons and heads with 500 miles on them- the owner of the bike had him put a Screamin Eagle big bore kit on that bike. So, I swapped out the jugs, pistons and heads and freshened up the whole top end. I had also been noticing some oil mist collecting on the engine cases under the air cleaner after hard and continuous running on the interstates. Since I was pulling things down, the answer was to put in an S & S crankcase diverter plate.
The result is a good runner with some snap to her. It took a little tinkering with the carburetor jets, and going to a less restrictive baffle in the mufflers. The Hog has a nice throaty sound, not crackly, not overly loud, but a nice solid exhaust sound when she is accelerating or pulling load. Working on large medium speed diesel engines and locomotives and hearing them pull load, I like the sound that resulted after I sorted out the muffler baffling. I am old school, so go by "reading the sparkplugs". The bike still has the basic stock CV carburetor, which is fine by me. With the modifications, the bike cold starts a lot easier and idles a bit smoother. When the bike left the HD factory, it was set up way too lean to meet EPA standards. I had a lean miss straight out of the showroom in 2004. I went up a couple of jet sizes back then, and now, after the change in camming and less restrictive exhaust, up another few jet sizes. I feel the difference on a long steep upgrade near my house. We test the motorcycles to see what they have by doing a top-gear roll on at the foot of that grade. Before I changed cams and made the other changes, the bike bogged a bit in fifth gear, kind of hitting a flat spot and not having any more acceleration with the throttle twisted to the stop, doing about 65 and pulling a steep grade. With the new cams and the less restrictive baffles in the mufflers, a fifth gear roll on produces a steady acceleration on up that grade, and I have to ease off on the throttle before I reach the top of the grade. It seems to be a good combination of things, and I will admit to loving the feel of a Harley engine, imagining those big flywheels when the engine is winding up and pulling hard.
I agree wholeheartedly with you: true motorcycle riders love to talk about motorcycles, and even if they were strangers at the onset of a conversation, they do not stay strangers for long. I do not know about the modern sport riders, but the folks who ride the real iron- the Hogs, old Airheads, or old British iron seem to find an instant camaraderie. My wife enjoys it as well, when we are out and about on one of our bikes. It's funny to realize that the people I regarded as "oldtime riders" are mostly gone on that ride into the great beyond, and now I am one of those oldtimers. Talking about coil and points ignitions or carburetors, or running motorcycle wheels with inner tubes is stuff the younger riders have never experienced. Even wearing leather to ride seems on its way out, as "ballistic fabric" riding jackets and pants with body armor seem to be taking over. I hear the younger sport touring riders talking of having "Bluetooth" in their helmets so they can receive directions from their on-board GPS, or cell phone connections. To me, riding a motorcycle was always about being one with the machine and the road, as basic and simple as it gets. If I needed to go somewhere, I looked at a map and memorized directions. In complex locations, coming into a strange town or city, I might write the directions in large printing and tape them to the gas tank. In most cases, I followed my nose and sense of direction, looked at the sky to determine which way I was headed if the road signs did not say "North, South, East, or West". I like to say my motorcycles have their own souls and are good horses. Sometimes, when I'd be in a bad way over events in my life, I'd take a long solitary ride over back roads. I'd do the equivalent of "dropping the reins" on a good horse, and let the bike seemingly take me where it wanted to go. We'd meander over miles of back roads, which is easy enough to do in the Northern Catskills or NY State. Sooner or later, it would seem like when I was ready to head for the barn, the bike would sense it and I'd snap into the present and be ona familiar road headed home.
One time, a few years back,on Labor Day, I was riding my Harley from NY State out to Omaha. Out on the interstate, I was coming down a grade in a 65 mph zone, and the Hog had the bit in her teeth, rolling at about 90. I blew by a State Trooper in the weeds at the foot of the hill, and I saw him immediately pull out. Before he had his lights fully on, I was signalling right and braking. I had the bike on the shoulder and both feet solidly on the pavement when he got out of the cruiser. I had both hands lightly on the handlebars, fingers spread wide, and my shield was up. The trooper approached and I figured he might be a hard ass since I was riding a Harley and in full black leather. He asked me for my license and registration. I asked his permission to stand up, remove my gloves, and reach for my wallet. He said OK, and I gave him my documents. He then asked if I knew why he had stopped me. I told him: I was running in excess of the posted limit. He asked if I knew how fast I was running, and I said, "about 90 mph." He then asked why I was riding that fast. I told him: "No good reason or excuse. This Harley is like a good horse and she took the bit in her teeth on a nice day, and I gave her her head." The trooper laughed and said he needed to check me out and headed to his cruiser. I figured it would be my first speeding ticket in over 35 years, and was dreading the idea of points on my license. The trooper returned after awhile. He said: "Lookit Mister Michaels... you have a commercial driver's license, and up until now you have had a clean record. You don;t need no trouble. You are 60 years old, probably have a family, and seem like a solid guy. I'm gonna write you up for 'failure to follow a sign', which is a non moving violation. No points on your license, no trouble afterwards. How does that sound ?" I told the trooper he was a gentleman and thanked him. He told me that he had probably done me a favor in stopping me as running at the clip I was running, there is no telling what might have happened in Labor Day weekend traffic. He asked me about riding to Omaha, and my family and what I did for a living, and we had a nice visit. I asked if he would mind shaking hands, and we did shake hands. I took my ticket, and when I got to Omaha, I sent a Western Union money order to the Justice of the Peace who would be handling the ticket. I suppose the trooper appreciated some honesty, and appreciated a man telling him he enjoyed letting a Harley run. Not a bad encounter as these things do go. To finish the job in fine style, the JP refunded me part of the fine and I never bothered to figure out how that happened.
Great post, and I really enjoyed reading it. You were riding bikes when I was a kid barely out of diapers. I've been riding over 40 years, so you go way back. Your mention of Indian and working for an Indian Dealer really sounds like it was an interesting experience. A few years back, my wife and I rode over to Rhinebeck, NY to the Antique Motorcycle Association's national meet. In one of the buildings, we saw a pair of beautiful old Indians- an Indian four and an Indian Chief. The man showing them was Butch Baer. My wife and I got to talking to Butch, who had quite a lot to tell us about the old Indian factory and riding for them. He let my wife sit on his prized Indians for a photo or two. Indian folded some 60 years ago, so finding anyone who has a real connection to the original Indian Motocycle (deliberate 'mis spelling') is getting to be kind of rare.
As a kind of funny story: about 20 years ago, I gave my daughter a ride from our house to town on the passenger seat of my old BMW bike. When we arrived in town, one of the oldtimers came over, with his thumbs hooked in his suspenders. He was an old tool and diemaker, and a hardcore train buff. The oldtimer said he had a question he'd been meaning to ask since 1939 and had never met anyone he thought would be able to answer it. He asked about the torque reaction in the bike from the BMW engine, and how it affected handling. I am probably so used to it that I do not notice it. I explained that the BMW has a very low center of gravity, and pretty well compensates for the "P force" or torque reaction from the axially mounted engine. I asked the oldtimer why he had waited from 1939 until 1995 to ask his question. He told me: he had been at the Indian plant in Springfield, Massachusetts, in 1939, and seen the Indian Fours being crated and loaded into boxcars for shipment. Seeing that engine placement in the motorcycle frame had caused the oldtimer to think of the torque reaction and he had it in the back of his mind for a mere 56 years. I asked the oldtimer if he was visiting Indian to take a factory tour, or if he had ever ridden motorcycles. He spat on the ground, growled he hated motorcycles, and the only reason he was at the Indian plant was to take photos of a steam locomotive switching cars on Indian's siding.
You are correct about people and talking about motorcycles. My wife and I sometimes take Sunday rides, and wind up in little cafe's for a cup of coffee and a slice of pie. This one Sunday also a good 10 years ago or so, my wife and I were sitting in a cafe in a little village, having coffee and pie. An old man and his wife came over to our table. The oldtimer saw by our leathers that we'd ridden there on a motorcycle. His wife had his elbow and was trying to head him off. It turned out the oldtimer had started riding on a 1936 Harley he had bought for 25 bucks with a seized engine. It was a couple of years old at the time, and the original owner's wife insisted the original owner get rid of it. The original owner stuck the bike in a chicken coop, and employed the man I was talking to- a kid at the time- as a dishwasher in his cafe. Anyhow, the fellow I was talking to bought that Harley and he and some friends at the local garage freed up the engine, honed the cylinders and put new rings in. He learned to ride that Harley and rode with some other fellows in the days before WWII. He explained a joke he'd play on the Indian riders. Apparently the Harley had the manual spark advance control lever on one side of the handlebars, while Indian had it on the opposite side. The Indian riders would knock the Harley, and he's say: "well, if you think my Harley is so bad a motorcycle, take a ride on it and tell me what you think after that..." The oldtimer would never tell the Indian riders where the spark advance was at, and let them think they had retarded the spark when they were actually working the choke. The Indian riders would try to kick start the Harley with the spark fully advanced, and that would generally result in a wicked kick back and occasionally launch an Indian rider up and over the bars.
The oldtimer asked if I understood what he was talking about, and I assured him I knew about manual spark advance and retarding the spark for starting. With that, he launched into quite a history of riding and old bikes. He told us he knew what BMW bikes were because he had ridden some captured German Army BMW's during WWII. We were having a wonderful time, and the man's wife was asking my wife if her husband was talking too much. My wife said that she was enjoying seeing the oldtimer enjoying himself. The oldtimer did tell us that I was one of the few people he'd run into who knew what a manual spark advance was, and understood what he was talking about. Moments like that, unfortunately, are almost a bygone thing as that generation of riders rides off into the great beyond.
I can fully understand and respect your assessment of BMW bikes. They are smooth running, incredibly forgiving machines. A Harley has an entirely different feel to it, just as a classic British bike has its own feel. I've owned and ridden all three. Each has a different style of riding, a different feel, and the British bike and the Hog do seem to seep into a person a lot differently than an old BMW. I remember the first time I rode a Hog, many years ago. It was the same sort of feeling I would get in the cab of a steam locomotive, a solid, powerful lugger. I enjoy my Dyna Lowrider a great deal, or I would not have gone ahead with the engine work to correct the problem with the camshaft drive chain. I went for an S & S geared camshaft drive, and, in a weak moment, listened to a couple of oldtime Hog mechanics a little too long. They convinced me to order a set of .510 cams from S & S, which are a little hotter than stock. Other than that, when we pulled the engine top end down, I saw the makings of some wear in the cylinders at 45 K miles. The engine was starting to use noticeably more oil. I was thinking in terms of honing the cylinders and putting in a new set of rings, and lapping in the valves. As luck would have it, a local Hog mechanic had a set of Dyna Lowrider jugs, pistons and heads with 500 miles on them- the owner of the bike had him put a Screamin Eagle big bore kit on that bike. So, I swapped out the jugs, pistons and heads and freshened up the whole top end. I had also been noticing some oil mist collecting on the engine cases under the air cleaner after hard and continuous running on the interstates. Since I was pulling things down, the answer was to put in an S & S crankcase diverter plate.
The result is a good runner with some snap to her. It took a little tinkering with the carburetor jets, and going to a less restrictive baffle in the mufflers. The Hog has a nice throaty sound, not crackly, not overly loud, but a nice solid exhaust sound when she is accelerating or pulling load. Working on large medium speed diesel engines and locomotives and hearing them pull load, I like the sound that resulted after I sorted out the muffler baffling. I am old school, so go by "reading the sparkplugs". The bike still has the basic stock CV carburetor, which is fine by me. With the modifications, the bike cold starts a lot easier and idles a bit smoother. When the bike left the HD factory, it was set up way too lean to meet EPA standards. I had a lean miss straight out of the showroom in 2004. I went up a couple of jet sizes back then, and now, after the change in camming and less restrictive exhaust, up another few jet sizes. I feel the difference on a long steep upgrade near my house. We test the motorcycles to see what they have by doing a top-gear roll on at the foot of that grade. Before I changed cams and made the other changes, the bike bogged a bit in fifth gear, kind of hitting a flat spot and not having any more acceleration with the throttle twisted to the stop, doing about 65 and pulling a steep grade. With the new cams and the less restrictive baffles in the mufflers, a fifth gear roll on produces a steady acceleration on up that grade, and I have to ease off on the throttle before I reach the top of the grade. It seems to be a good combination of things, and I will admit to loving the feel of a Harley engine, imagining those big flywheels when the engine is winding up and pulling hard.
I agree wholeheartedly with you: true motorcycle riders love to talk about motorcycles, and even if they were strangers at the onset of a conversation, they do not stay strangers for long. I do not know about the modern sport riders, but the folks who ride the real iron- the Hogs, old Airheads, or old British iron seem to find an instant camaraderie. My wife enjoys it as well, when we are out and about on one of our bikes. It's funny to realize that the people I regarded as "oldtime riders" are mostly gone on that ride into the great beyond, and now I am one of those oldtimers. Talking about coil and points ignitions or carburetors, or running motorcycle wheels with inner tubes is stuff the younger riders have never experienced. Even wearing leather to ride seems on its way out, as "ballistic fabric" riding jackets and pants with body armor seem to be taking over. I hear the younger sport touring riders talking of having "Bluetooth" in their helmets so they can receive directions from their on-board GPS, or cell phone connections. To me, riding a motorcycle was always about being one with the machine and the road, as basic and simple as it gets. If I needed to go somewhere, I looked at a map and memorized directions. In complex locations, coming into a strange town or city, I might write the directions in large printing and tape them to the gas tank. In most cases, I followed my nose and sense of direction, looked at the sky to determine which way I was headed if the road signs did not say "North, South, East, or West". I like to say my motorcycles have their own souls and are good horses. Sometimes, when I'd be in a bad way over events in my life, I'd take a long solitary ride over back roads. I'd do the equivalent of "dropping the reins" on a good horse, and let the bike seemingly take me where it wanted to go. We'd meander over miles of back roads, which is easy enough to do in the Northern Catskills or NY State. Sooner or later, it would seem like when I was ready to head for the barn, the bike would sense it and I'd snap into the present and be ona familiar road headed home.
One time, a few years back,on Labor Day, I was riding my Harley from NY State out to Omaha. Out on the interstate, I was coming down a grade in a 65 mph zone, and the Hog had the bit in her teeth, rolling at about 90. I blew by a State Trooper in the weeds at the foot of the hill, and I saw him immediately pull out. Before he had his lights fully on, I was signalling right and braking. I had the bike on the shoulder and both feet solidly on the pavement when he got out of the cruiser. I had both hands lightly on the handlebars, fingers spread wide, and my shield was up. The trooper approached and I figured he might be a hard ass since I was riding a Harley and in full black leather. He asked me for my license and registration. I asked his permission to stand up, remove my gloves, and reach for my wallet. He said OK, and I gave him my documents. He then asked if I knew why he had stopped me. I told him: I was running in excess of the posted limit. He asked if I knew how fast I was running, and I said, "about 90 mph." He then asked why I was riding that fast. I told him: "No good reason or excuse. This Harley is like a good horse and she took the bit in her teeth on a nice day, and I gave her her head." The trooper laughed and said he needed to check me out and headed to his cruiser. I figured it would be my first speeding ticket in over 35 years, and was dreading the idea of points on my license. The trooper returned after awhile. He said: "Lookit Mister Michaels... you have a commercial driver's license, and up until now you have had a clean record. You don;t need no trouble. You are 60 years old, probably have a family, and seem like a solid guy. I'm gonna write you up for 'failure to follow a sign', which is a non moving violation. No points on your license, no trouble afterwards. How does that sound ?" I told the trooper he was a gentleman and thanked him. He told me that he had probably done me a favor in stopping me as running at the clip I was running, there is no telling what might have happened in Labor Day weekend traffic. He asked me about riding to Omaha, and my family and what I did for a living, and we had a nice visit. I asked if he would mind shaking hands, and we did shake hands. I took my ticket, and when I got to Omaha, I sent a Western Union money order to the Justice of the Peace who would be handling the ticket. I suppose the trooper appreciated some honesty, and appreciated a man telling him he enjoyed letting a Harley run. Not a bad encounter as these things do go. To finish the job in fine style, the JP refunded me part of the fine and I never bothered to figure out how that happened.
jim rozen
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2004
- Location
- peekskill, NY
Just for the record I would say that modern BMW dealerships sorta rub me the wrong way too. The last one that made any sense
to me was in Dumont, NJ and was actually one of the first. AMOL closed up around ten years ago for a variety of reasons, chief
among them the requirement from the factory that dealerships devote large areas of space exclusively to their brand. Many
independent bmw dealerships went under because of that rule.
The knuclehead motor is an amazing thing. There's a guy who would show up at the old Marcus Dairy, in danbury CT riding
a very original, rat type knuck. You would not know it but that bike was worth somewhere around $ 50K or so. Just buying
a knucklehead motor in the sort of shape where you could *begin* to restore it to operation, tens of thousands of dollars.
to me was in Dumont, NJ and was actually one of the first. AMOL closed up around ten years ago for a variety of reasons, chief
among them the requirement from the factory that dealerships devote large areas of space exclusively to their brand. Many
independent bmw dealerships went under because of that rule.
The knuclehead motor is an amazing thing. There's a guy who would show up at the old Marcus Dairy, in danbury CT riding
a very original, rat type knuck. You would not know it but that bike was worth somewhere around $ 50K or so. Just buying
a knucklehead motor in the sort of shape where you could *begin* to restore it to operation, tens of thousands of dollars.
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
Hello again, Joe.
Rather than quote your entire post, I'll just comment here. You sound like you have some great stories, too! I can talk to motorcycle people all night and never get tired swapping stories.
You police story reminded me of the old days in Chicago. There were two police departments before 1957 or so when the first Mayor Daly came into office. One was the Park District PD that ran Indians and the other was the City PD with their Harley Panheads. They both had one thing in common, they hated bikes and their riders and would stop them for no reason whenever they saw one.
One night my friend Owen and I were blasting down what was later to become a freeway South of town. My little BSA B-31 (350cc) would do exactly 84 mph and Owen's Vertical Twin Indian Scout was maybe a little faster. We were doing top speed when I spotted some red lights under a billboard coming from the dark. Instantly, I knew that it was the oil and generator lights of an idling cop Harley. Sure enough when we got past the billboard, he pulled out, siren and lights blasting. We went up about another mile with the cop closing on us. There was a stop sign that we ignored when we made a right turn.
After we had made the turn, I looked back and saw a shower of sparks. The intrepid policeman had biffed his turn and slid out. It looked like the Fourth of July. Needless to say, we didn't bother to turn around and help him out as he was probably rather upset with us. Well, I always said that with motorcycles, we make our own luck, LOL. I can imagine that he had to think up something to tell the desk sergeant when he had dusted himself off and gone back to the station.
Don't get me wrong about BMW's. They make a truly great bike, but as I said, I never made connections with the dealers like I did with the Harleys. In fact, I was told to get off of a BMW at a dealer in Los Angeles one day. He didn't want anyone messing with his bikes. Ha.
In 1954, I attended a road race at Wilmot, Wisconsin. This is just above Chicago. There was a road race track there for cars, but they also ran motorcycles from time to time. (You can still see the remains of the track on Google Earth) That day, there was a privateer riding a very fast BMW 500 cc bike. I'm sure that it was 500cc because at that time, the AMA Class C rules permitted flathead 45 cu. in . bikes and 500cc OHV foreign machines. He fell down at speed and the bike slid a couple of hundred feet on the right cylinder. When I saw the machine later in the pits. it had ground off the valve cover and the rocker arms, valve caps and springs were missing. Just the valves were sticking out. Phew.
When I was a little older, I rode the National 500 mile Jack Pine Enduro in Michigan. It was a two day affair then. I never won anything but I sure got to ride. I rode it five times and finished it four. I also later rode both the Green Horn Enduro starting in Pasadena, CA and the Big Bear Hare and Hound. I broke my left leg that year and almost died. They found me, though and I got fixed up. Part of the whole motorcycling tableau.
Motorcycling was incredibly active in Southern California in the 1950's and 60's. It's much different now as the use of the desert has been greatly curtailed. Before that happened, I rode numerous Hare and Hound races on a BSA Gold Star, an Ariel Red Hunter and several Triumphs. It was all good fun and I wouldn't trade the experiences.
Rather than quote your entire post, I'll just comment here. You sound like you have some great stories, too! I can talk to motorcycle people all night and never get tired swapping stories.
You police story reminded me of the old days in Chicago. There were two police departments before 1957 or so when the first Mayor Daly came into office. One was the Park District PD that ran Indians and the other was the City PD with their Harley Panheads. They both had one thing in common, they hated bikes and their riders and would stop them for no reason whenever they saw one.
One night my friend Owen and I were blasting down what was later to become a freeway South of town. My little BSA B-31 (350cc) would do exactly 84 mph and Owen's Vertical Twin Indian Scout was maybe a little faster. We were doing top speed when I spotted some red lights under a billboard coming from the dark. Instantly, I knew that it was the oil and generator lights of an idling cop Harley. Sure enough when we got past the billboard, he pulled out, siren and lights blasting. We went up about another mile with the cop closing on us. There was a stop sign that we ignored when we made a right turn.
After we had made the turn, I looked back and saw a shower of sparks. The intrepid policeman had biffed his turn and slid out. It looked like the Fourth of July. Needless to say, we didn't bother to turn around and help him out as he was probably rather upset with us. Well, I always said that with motorcycles, we make our own luck, LOL. I can imagine that he had to think up something to tell the desk sergeant when he had dusted himself off and gone back to the station.
Don't get me wrong about BMW's. They make a truly great bike, but as I said, I never made connections with the dealers like I did with the Harleys. In fact, I was told to get off of a BMW at a dealer in Los Angeles one day. He didn't want anyone messing with his bikes. Ha.
In 1954, I attended a road race at Wilmot, Wisconsin. This is just above Chicago. There was a road race track there for cars, but they also ran motorcycles from time to time. (You can still see the remains of the track on Google Earth) That day, there was a privateer riding a very fast BMW 500 cc bike. I'm sure that it was 500cc because at that time, the AMA Class C rules permitted flathead 45 cu. in . bikes and 500cc OHV foreign machines. He fell down at speed and the bike slid a couple of hundred feet on the right cylinder. When I saw the machine later in the pits. it had ground off the valve cover and the rocker arms, valve caps and springs were missing. Just the valves were sticking out. Phew.
When I was a little older, I rode the National 500 mile Jack Pine Enduro in Michigan. It was a two day affair then. I never won anything but I sure got to ride. I rode it five times and finished it four. I also later rode both the Green Horn Enduro starting in Pasadena, CA and the Big Bear Hare and Hound. I broke my left leg that year and almost died. They found me, though and I got fixed up. Part of the whole motorcycling tableau.
Motorcycling was incredibly active in Southern California in the 1950's and 60's. It's much different now as the use of the desert has been greatly curtailed. Before that happened, I rode numerous Hare and Hound races on a BSA Gold Star, an Ariel Red Hunter and several Triumphs. It was all good fun and I wouldn't trade the experiences.
...some say they brought out the panhead so they could sell more parts...the Knucklehead was just too good...they have the toughest valve seat material I've ever seen...takes many dressings of a grinding stone to get them true...tougher than even the seats in old Caterpillar diesels...and for those that don't know old Harleys...they have hemispherical combustion chambers...roller tappets...dry sump lubrication...roller rod and main bearings...fork and blade connecting rods...I always thought they took after a good aircraft radial engine...
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
That knucklehead motor was truly a thing of beauty. The whole bike sported a lovely Art Deco motiff and they were actually rather small and light compared to the competition, the Indian Chiefs. IIRC, they only built something under 100,000 machines in the Knucklehead era from 1936 to 1947 so, as you say, they are quite expensive now.
In my salad days, I owned a 1946 FL Knucklehead 74", a 1947 61"EL and a 47" 61. I never paid more than $200 for any one of them. Motorcycles were a drag on the market once cars got back into production after the big war. There were usually two or three for sale on every corner. If only we knew then what we know now. LOL.
Newman109
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
That's probably true about the Panheads. While the Knuckleheads always had quiet valve gear even with solid lifters, probably because the heads and cylinders both were cast iron, the early Panheads (1948 to 1952) were plagued with noisy valve gear. They had the lifters up in the tops of the pushrods and the oil, which went up through passages in the sides of the cylinders got very hot. That meant that it was nearly boiling by the time that it got to the lifters. Thus, there was nothing left to fill the lifters so they were prone to clacking. This wasn't bad on a new one, but later on, it became a real problem. I owned a 1950 Panhead that had this issue and it never did quiet down. I could hear it clicking and clacking the day I sold it and the proud new owner rode it away. LOL.
This problem pretty much went away in 1953 when Harley figured out that the lifters should be made larger and should be put down in the crankcase so that they would be able to get some oil. They have maintained this setup to the present day.
The rest of the engine was pretty much the same as the Knucklehead, though and not all that bad. Those were fun days.
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